Maybe things are being handled differently in your neck of the world than in mine. In the US we are being issued tickets for the local assembly hall. Some congregations in the area are being chosen to host this event also, and maybe if you attend there it won't require a ticket--I don't know. Anyone who thinks he will really get to see what the annual meeting is all about is sure to be disappointed, since we are assigned to just a 2 hour segment. That's right, 2 hours is all we're going to get! This is just window dressing on the part of the GB. Even to hardcore JWs this will be a disappointment.
Socrateswannabe
JoinedPosts by Socrateswannabe
-
29
New Arrangement: All Can Listen In to Bethel Annual Meeting
by Red Piller ina letter read at our meeting.. .
our congregation is assigned a location (a nearby congregation) to listen (video, also?
) to the annual meeting.
-
-
-
81
Friend gets "scriptural divorce" over wifes transgressions before they got married...
by sosoconfused inso i have a friend in a congregation in new jersey who recently called me to tell me that he got a divorce.
nothing surprising there at first but it is the fact of when it happened.
his wife began pioneering april 1, and after about three weeks she came to him and told him that about 4 years she had engaged in loose conduct (fondling the penis and the guy kissing her breasts) during a time that she was inactive.
-
-
Socrateswannabe
Sosoconfused, others have already made the point that your friend may not be leveling with you. People lie for many reasons, and I think that there is a chance that you are not being told the truth.
I don't know your friend, but I have sat on many judicial committees and here are some of my observations: If what your friend says is true, this judicial committee rendered a stunningly egregious verdict against this couple's marriage. It is completely indefensible, and is unsupported by anything in the scriptures, the WTS literature, or by common sense. It is impossible to commit adultery if you're not married, and adultery is the only grounds for gaining a scriptural divorce (in Matthew Jesus said it was "fornication" but JWs understand this to mean pornea with someone other than your mate, so for this to apply your friend would have had to be married to her at the time).
So here's how it should and would normally go down, even in the unfair world of JW judicial committees: The wife confesses to the husband and then they go together to a judicial committee. If the husband is not put off by this (and why should he be--they didn't even know one another at the time), the sister is counseled and perhaps privately reproved, but likely as not, she may get off with just counseling and perhaps losing her privilege of pioneering for a bit. If the husband is repulsed by the conduct of his wife, that would not change what happens to her as far as the congregation is concerned. She is no more culpable if he is put off by her actions than if he accepts them. If he decides to initiate a divorce, the judicial committee would inform him that he may do so, but that he would not be scripturally free to remarry. There is no indication in Christianity that a bride has to be "pure". That is 3500 year old Israelite garbage that was worthless back then and even less applicable today. If this situation had come up on just about any committee I've served on, the elders would have counseled the couple to stay together, and in fact, no committee is ever supposed to counsel a person toward a divorce. Even in the case of adultery, the innocent mate has a right to forgive if he wants to.
There are plenty of nutty elders out there who, on their own, might be capable of rendering such a moronic decision as you describe. But that's why there are at least 3 elders on a judicial committee. The idea is that if the committee goes completely off the rails, at least one of them will yank the others back on track. My experience is that elders and judicial committees don't hesitate to call the service department when they have an issue that is complex or that might spawn litigation. I have sat on a number of committees that did this. There is no way the service department would have agreed to their decision.
So to my thinking, the situation your friend described to you would almost have to be a conspiracy between him and at least three elders. I suppose that is possible, but it is unlikely. This sort of thing would expose the congregation and the individual elders to a civil lawsuit. The issue used to be called Alienation of Affections, but I understand that is no longer used in most states. I would think there is some similar basis for suit that has taken its place. Perhaps some of the lawyers on our forum can answer that.
-
20
The WTS has an ANSWER/SPIN for everything! Acts 12:15
by Socrateswannabe inper the ministry school schedule, the bible reading continues in the book of acts.
in chapter 12 king herod arrests peter and throws him in prison, meaning to "produce him" for the jews after the passover (evidently to be executed).
an angel appears to peter in prison, releases his bonds and walks him out of the gate of the jail.
-
-
Socrateswannabe
Wow, excellent responses everybody!
-
269
Why does god kill children?
by Comatose ini was thinking about all the accounts in the bible that indicate god kills children as a punishment or teaching experience.
1. kills all of egypts firstborn sons, who were innocent kids who did nothing to him or his people, who had no control over the decisions pharoah made.
how many times have you read that account or thought about it without realizing the devastating pain dealt to all those parents, and remembered those were innocent kids?.
-
-
Socrateswannabe
Marked to refer back to anytime I might start feeling soft toward the god of the bible. I no longer believe there is such a being, but the guys who made him up and, (my apologies, Jews and Christians) the people who perpetuate the idea of him as a loving and just being, are just plain sick.
-
20
The WTS has an ANSWER/SPIN for everything! Acts 12:15
by Socrateswannabe inper the ministry school schedule, the bible reading continues in the book of acts.
in chapter 12 king herod arrests peter and throws him in prison, meaning to "produce him" for the jews after the passover (evidently to be executed).
an angel appears to peter in prison, releases his bonds and walks him out of the gate of the jail.
-
-
Socrateswannabe
Thanks everybody, for the great responses. Okay, so maybe I was wrong and it's not spin. Red Piller, Slimboyfat, and Sir82 make the point that guardian angel is probably a good rendering of this text, and the WTS in their explanation of the scripture offers that up as a possibility. That would, however, mean that in the Jerusalem congregation--the one I suppose where the apostles and older men worshipped--they accepted the traditional Jewish view of guardian angels as protectors of individual worshipers.
I think it's interesting that the WTS doesn't condemn this belief as heretical, they simply state it and then throw in a bit of misdirection to avoid having to admit that the first century Christians were wrong. If a JW today persisted in teaching in the congregation that each Witness has a guardian angel, I have a feeling some judicial action would be taken against that person. It probably would be considered apostasy. Seems a bit ironic to me.
-
20
The WTS has an ANSWER/SPIN for everything! Acts 12:15
by Socrateswannabe inper the ministry school schedule, the bible reading continues in the book of acts.
in chapter 12 king herod arrests peter and throws him in prison, meaning to "produce him" for the jews after the passover (evidently to be executed).
an angel appears to peter in prison, releases his bonds and walks him out of the gate of the jail.
-
-
Socrateswannabe
Per the Ministry School schedule, the bible reading continues in the book of Acts. In chapter 12 King Herod arrests Peter and throws him in prison, meaning to "produce him" for the Jews after the passover (evidently to be executed). An angel appears to Peter in prison, releases his bonds and walks him out of the gate of the jail. Peter hotfoots it over to John Mark's mom's house, where there is a gathering of the Jerusalem congregation. Peter knocks on the door, a young girl answers and is so astonished at seeing Peter that she leaves him at the door and runs into the crowd to report what she's seen. The congregation first says she's mad, then they say, and this is according to the NWT: "It is his angel."
How do you take that? That the congregation was afraid that Peter had already been executed, and was appearing to them as Jesus did after his so-called resurrection? If that's so, wouldn't that indicate that at least some Christians of the time believed in an instant resurrection? Not according to the answer spin given in the Questions from Readers in the 6/1/05 Watchtower:
Upon hearing that the imprisoned Peter was at the door, why did the disciples say: "It is his angel"?-Acts 12:15.
The disciples may erroneously have assumed that an angelic messenger representing Peter stood at the gate. Consider the context of this passage.
Peter had been arrested by Herod, who had put James to death. So the disciples had good reason to believe that Peter would meet a similar end. Bound by chains, the imprisoned Peter was guarded by four shifts of four soldiers each. Then, one night he was miraculously freed and led out of the prison by an angel. When Peter finally realized what was happening, he said: "Now I actually know that Jehovah sent his angel forth and delivered me out of Herod's hand."-Acts 12:1-11.
Peter immediately went to the house of Mary the mother of John Mark, where a number of the disciples were gathered. When he knocked on the door of the gateway, a servant girl named Rhoda went to answer. Upon recognizing Peter's voice, she ran to tell the others without even letting him in! At first, the disciples could not believe that Peter was at the gate. Instead, they erroneously assumed: "It is his angel."-Acts 12:12-15.
Did the disciples believe that Peter had already been put to death and that his disembodied spirit was at the gate? This could hardly be the case, for Jesus' followers knew the Scriptural truth about the dead-that they are "conscious of nothing at all." (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) What, then, could the disciples have meant when they said: "It is his angel"?
Jesus' disciples knew that throughout history, angels rendered personal assistance to God's people. For example, Jacob spoke of "the angel who has been recovering me from all calamity." (Genesis 48:16) And regarding a young child in their midst, Jesus told his followers: "See to it that you men do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that their angels in heaven always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven."-Matthew 18:10.
Interestingly, Young's Literal Translation of the Holy Bible renders the word ag′ge·los ("angel") as "messenger." It appears that there was a belief among some Jews that each servant of God had his own angel-in effect, a "guardian angel." Of course, this view is not directly taught in God's Word. Still, it is possible that when the disciples said, "It is his angel," they were assuming that an angelic messenger representing Peter stood at the gate.Am I the only one who thinks this makes absolutely no sense at all and is total spin???
-
20
Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 06-23-2013 WT Study (MAKE SURE)
by blondie inorganization?.
organization!
organization.
-
-
Socrateswannabe
Blondie, I don't know if this was Freudian or on purpose but it sure gave me a good chuckle. The "army of large women do all the preaching"! Yes they do! I am a big fan of your reviews--I never miss them--and I really appreciate all the work you put into them. You never fail to show the c**p that still spews from the WTS. Thanks.
-
20
Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 06-23-2013 WT Study (MAKE SURE)
by blondie inorganization?.
organization!
organization.
-
-
Socrateswannabe
Blondie, I don't know if this was Freudian or on purpose but it sure gave me a good chuckle. The "army of large women do all the preaching"! Yes they do! I am a big fan of your reviews--I never miss them--and I really appreciate all the work you put into them. You never fail to show the c**p that still spews from the WTS. Thanks.
-
47
Did Stephen believe he would have to wait 2000 years for a resurrection?
by Socrateswannabe inin acts 7:59, the jews were casting stones at stephen and his last words were, "lord jesus, receive my spirit.".
the wts has contended that all of the ancients who died after jesus were in a sleep-like condition, awaiting a resurrection that eventually happened in 1918-1919 (depending upon which wt reference you are looking at).
and in fact, v. 60 says stephen "fell asleep in death".
-
-
Socrateswannabe
mP, I learned that Stephen has one hell of a windup but not much of a pitch! He took 50 verses to set up Acts 7:51-53, which is ostensibly about Jesus. So what was the purpose for reeling off the entire history of Israel, just to say, you killed the prophets and now you've killed the righteous one? Seems sort of weird to me.
-
47
Did Stephen believe he would have to wait 2000 years for a resurrection?
by Socrateswannabe inin acts 7:59, the jews were casting stones at stephen and his last words were, "lord jesus, receive my spirit.".
the wts has contended that all of the ancients who died after jesus were in a sleep-like condition, awaiting a resurrection that eventually happened in 1918-1919 (depending upon which wt reference you are looking at).
and in fact, v. 60 says stephen "fell asleep in death".
-
-
Socrateswannabe
Acluetofindtheuser, I'm not sure I can agree to that, in Stephen's case anyway. "Lord Jesus, receive my oxygen or my ability to breathe"? Maybe I'm missing something.