I'm in favor of almost any philosophy that debunks religion, but Rand took Rationalism too far--to becoming an extremist cause that can't be justified or sustained in any society.
Socrateswannabe
JoinedPosts by Socrateswannabe
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Ayn Rand - Opinions?
by cappytan infor those of you familiar with ayn rand and her ideas on morality, rationality and reason, what is your opinion of those ideas?.
i'm talking about her actual ideas, not the ideals that libertarianism has adopted and, in some cases, perverted.
do you think she's a charlatan?
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Mormon who runs website for doubting church members ousted
by Socrateswannabe inapologies if this has already been discussed on this forum:.
mormon who runs website for doubting church members ousted.
salt lake city (ap) a mormon man who gained notoriety over the past decade for running a website that offers doubting latter-day saints a forum to chat has been kicked out of the religion..
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Socrateswannabe
Yes, I thought the similarities between LDS and JWs are astounding. -
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Mormon who runs website for doubting church members ousted
by Socrateswannabe inapologies if this has already been discussed on this forum:.
mormon who runs website for doubting church members ousted.
salt lake city (ap) a mormon man who gained notoriety over the past decade for running a website that offers doubting latter-day saints a forum to chat has been kicked out of the religion..
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Socrateswannabe
Apologies if this has already been discussed on this forum:
Mormon who runs website for doubting church members ousted
SALT LAKE CITY (AP) — A Mormon man who gained notoriety over the past decade for running a website that offers doubting Latter-day Saints a forum to chat has been kicked out of the religion.
John Dehlin announced the decision from regional church leaders Tuesday. He becomes the second high-profile church member to be excommunicated in the past year in what Mormon scholars consider to be the Utah-based faith's way of keeping dissenters in line.
A regional church leader in North Logan told Dehlin in a letter that Mormon officials made a unanimous decision to excommunicate him for apostasy, defined by the church as repeatedly acting in clear public opposition to the faith.
While not a lifelong ban, excommunication is a rare move that amounts to the harshest punishment available for a church member.
The letter from Bryan King says Dehlin is being kicked out not because he doubted and asked questions about church doctrine, but because he made categorical statements opposing the faith that were disseminated on his website. King wrote that Dehlin's actions have led others to leave the faith.
"You do not have the right to remain a member of the church in good standing while openly and publicly trying to convince others that church teachings are in error," King wrote.
Dehlin lives in North Logan, a city of 9,600 about 85 miles north of Salt Lake City.
The decision comes two days after he met with church leaders in a four-hour disciplinary hearing.
Dehlin, 45, is a married father of four who has been a Latter-day Saint his entire life. He is a doctoral candidate in psychology who previously worked in the high-tech industry.
He hoped he wouldn't be excommunicated but told church leaders he could not in good conscience stop operating his website, Mormonstories.org.
"We're going to keep telling stories and keep providing support and community for Mormons who are unorthodox," Dehlin said Tuesday.
The family hasn't been attending church services since June and doesn't plan to return. "We're happy to use our Sundays to bond together as a family," he said.
Dehlin said he was told last year that his website and his public support of same-sex marriage were reasons he was being accused of apostasy.
But Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints spokesman Eric Hawkins said in a statement that while Dehlin's views on gay marriage go against church teachings, they were not the reasons for his discipline.
The letter cites three key issues, including Dehlin's belief that the Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham are fraudulent and his rejection of the religion being the "true church with power and authority from God."
Hawkins said excommunication is not the end, but rather the "beginning of the road back to full fellowship."
People who are kicked out or leave the church are welcome to return "through the grace and Atonement of Jesus Christ," Hawkins said.
The move is likely to send ripples through the Mormon community. It comes on the heels of the June ouster of Kate Kelly, founder of a group pushing for women to be allowed in the religion's lay clergy.
Scholars say Kelly and Dehlin are the most high-profile examples of excommunication proceedings since 1993. That year, the church disciplined six Mormon writers who questioned church doctrine, ousting five and kicking out a sixth temporarily.
"The church is sending a message with this: 'Don't express your doubts or concerns publicly, or you risk excommunication,'" said Mike Huband, a Dehlin supporter and active Mormon. "They are saying to those people on the fringes, 'We don't want you in the church.' It's very disappointing."
To supporters like Huband, Dehlin is a hero who risked his standing in the faith to create a much-needed forum where church members could openly discuss sensitive or controversial issues about the faith. About 200 supporters held a weekend vigil for Dehlin outside the church building where his disciplinary hearing took place.
Huband said Dehlin helped him navigate a recent faith crisis and figure out a way to focus on the positives of Mormonism and stay in the religion. Huband said he thinks Dehlin drew church leaders' wrath because he brought to light many unflattering issues about the church's past, including the early days of polygamy under Joseph Smith when the founder had a teen bride and married other men's wives.
To his detractors, Dehlin is a Latter-day Saint who long ago stopped believing in the faith's core tenets and has painted himself as a martyr.
"Dehlin's choices forced his local leaders to take steps to protect their adherents from one who not only ceased to believe, but who actively sought to have others embrace his disbelief," said Scott Gordon, co-founder of MormonVoices, an organization that supports the LDS church.
Dehlin has faced church discipline multiple times over the past decade, but it never reached this point. He says he only tried to help fellow church members dealing with doubts, and he doesn't regret his actions.
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Arrangement to Accelerate Building Kingdom Halls
by Socrateswannabe ini can't believe i'm the first one to admit going to this meeting.
it was a 3 hour video stream from patterson.
the first bit was used to set up the need.
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Socrateswannabe
SIr82: Today they still preach "the end is coming soon!" but now they have hatched a a 20-year plan to become a real estate conglomerate.
And no one makes a peep that during all this, the ownership of the buildings themselves have quietly passed from the local congregation to the WT Society. A total coup without firing a shot!
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Arrangement to Accelerate Building Kingdom Halls
by Socrateswannabe ini can't believe i'm the first one to admit going to this meeting.
it was a 3 hour video stream from patterson.
the first bit was used to set up the need.
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Socrateswannabe
Tech49, thank you for adding the perspective of someone in the business. Helps to cut through the smokescreen from the meeting last Saturday. -
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Stephen Fry on God: What would you say to him if he did exist?
by Simon ingreat answer to a stupid question - what would you say if you're wrong, if god does exist and you go to meet him when you die?.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-suvkwnysqo.
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Socrateswannabe
I'm glad to see that Stephen Fry the person has the same level-headed good sense that his famous character Jeeves displays in Jeeves and Wooster. I love this guy! -
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A few more random thoughts on the new Kingdom Hall design meeting
by sir82 inleft completely unsaid at the meeting: who is going to be the owner of the property & building when all of these new khs are built?
in the current arrangement, in most cases, a local trust is set up to hold ownership.
of course, the most likely answer is "the watchtower (or whatever shell corporations they set up) will own the land & building".
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Socrateswannabe
Sir82, there was no mention of ownership of the Halls and I doubt that there ever will be. It is the elephant in the room whose presence is felt but not discussed. It was certainly implied though. There was no question as to who will make all of the decisions from now on. Locals will no longer decide when to sell, when to remodel, when to build, or even which Hall their congregation is assigned to. That's all LDC now.
I agree with you about the hard sell on negative talk. These guys are builders so what should they care? Build a residential style building or build a commercial style building--it shouldn't matter. All I could read into this is that this is a complete shake up in personnel and that the negative talk might come from the old RBC powerbase complaining that they no longer have the chops they had under the former regime.
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Arrangement to Accelerate Building Kingdom Halls
by Socrateswannabe ini can't believe i'm the first one to admit going to this meeting.
it was a 3 hour video stream from patterson.
the first bit was used to set up the need.
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Socrateswannabe
@ MissFit: Did they show designs for double Kingdom halls?
No. Double Halls were not mentioned, just the three sizes of a single design. They did mention somewhere in the discussion that the average size would be 4600 SF, but I don't know how that compares to existing Hall size. I thought it was strange that they didn't mention double Halls.
@ Sir82: I agree. These new Halls will be much more marketable than the existing ones. Makes you wonder if most of the existing Halls will be teardowns by developers. I can't see much use for them as they currently exist.
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Ony J.W.'s could do this and not question what is going on
by Sour Grapes inat the meeting today several elders commented about the wonderful program that they attended yesterday on the new kingdom hall designs.
they said that the new halls are going to be so beautiful with lots of windows and glass panels and that the lights will be kept on in the lobby 24/7 so that you can see into the hall at night and that thousands of these halls must be built.
then five minutes later they are talking about how close the end is and that we will be meeting in basements in the near future.
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Socrateswannabe
Sour Grapes, my one disagreement with your opening post: "My bet is that the Org will get very one whipped up on the new design that everyone will vote on selling the existing residential halls and building the newer cheaper versions."
The meeting made it very clear that congregations will no longer have a say in any of this. The LDC will make the decision as to where a need exists for a new Hall, which property to buy for it, which congregations will attend, what Halls need to be sold, or whether an existing Hall should be remodeled. The locals are completely out of the loop now.
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Arrangement to Accelerate Building Kingdom Halls
by Socrateswannabe ini can't believe i'm the first one to admit going to this meeting.
it was a 3 hour video stream from patterson.
the first bit was used to set up the need.
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Socrateswannabe
I can't believe I'm the first one to admit going to this meeting. Or at least I don't see where anyone else has. It was a 3 hour video stream from Patterson. The first bit was used to set up the need. About 1000 Halls in the US that are severely overcrowded, many to the point of retarding growth in the area. The 3 metro areas with the most acute need are LA, Miami, and Dallas.
Then next bit was used to crack the whip and get the troops in line. Lots of the brothers who have been extensively used in RBC will no longer be used. Things aren't going to be done the way they used to be. Get over it. Work on whatever level you are allowed and don't moan about the good old days.
Creating standards to facilitate growth: Moving forward there will be a single design for Kingdom Halls in the U.S. They will come in small, standard, and large. That's it. The rendering looked not so bad, for a commercial building. It actually looks like a modern free-standing dentist's office. Improvements are: Lots of windows, flat roof with mechanicals on the roof to keep the bad guys from stealing them, monitors all around the interior, and the replacement of the literature and magazine desks with oversize literature trollys.
They expect this standardization to save them 20% of the cost of the building. They spent a lot of time talking about the heirarchy of the various design and build entities, and explained the 5 levels of volunteering available. There was also a lot of information regarding the maintenance of Halls, and how that they would soon send out trainers to teach the congregations how to properly upkeep the property.
The subtext throughout the whole thing was, this is no longer in your hands. You have virtually zero say now, it's all up to the LDC. That's all I can write about this, maybe someone else who was there can pick up the ball.