NO DOGS OR JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES ALLOWED.
Posts by Vidqun
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21What's Your Favorite "No JWs Or Peddlers" Sign or Bump-sticker, Here's Some!
by ÁrbolesdeArabia in.
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25
Generation clarification
by zound injust wanted to clarify something.. [if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:officedocumentsettings> <o:allowpng /> </o:officedocumentsettings> </xml><!
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Vidqun
Bobcat, this is where I got it from. It makes sense.
The term generation is understood to mean just what it normally means, namely, 30 to 100 years, or a generation, a life span. But the generation referred to in the expression “this generation” is not the generation to whom Christ is speaking, but the generation to whom the signs will become evident. In effect He is saying that the generation which sees the specific signs, that is, the great tribulation, will also see the fulfillment of the second coming of Christ. On the basis of other Scriptures, teaching that this period is only three and one-half years, this prophecy becomes a very plausible explanation. 1
[1] . Vol. 129: Bibliotheca Sacra Volume 129. 1972 (513) (24). Dallas, TX: Dallas Theological Seminary.
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EVIDENCE that Christians fled Jerusalem after 66 CE ...?
by EdenOne inwhat the ot says ... what sources of evidence do we have that account for the 'great escape' of the christians from jerusalem after cestius gallus siege of 66 ce ?
do we have any christian prespective about it?
since i concluded that all nt books were concluded before 66 ce (including revelation), what do we have in order to support the story that the jerusalem christians ran to pela ...etc....?
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Vidqun
This is a translation of Eusebius' testimony (Eccl. Hist. III. V, 3), which does sound like fanciful propaganda:
3 But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella. 11 And when those that believed in Christ had come thither from Jerusalem, then, as if the royal city of the Jews and the whole land of Judea were entirely destitute of holy men, the judgment of God at length overtook those who had committed such outrages against Christ and his apostles, and totally destroyed that generation of impious men.
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EVIDENCE that Christians fled Jerusalem after 66 CE ...?
by EdenOne inwhat the ot says ... what sources of evidence do we have that account for the 'great escape' of the christians from jerusalem after cestius gallus siege of 66 ce ?
do we have any christian prespective about it?
since i concluded that all nt books were concluded before 66 ce (including revelation), what do we have in order to support the story that the jerusalem christians ran to pela ...etc....?
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Vidqun
This is all I could find, relating to the Christians and the city of Pella. Evidence of Christian use of the city as refuge during the first Jewish revolt (A.D. 66-70) is still inconclusive. 1 Eusebius (Eccl. Hist. III. V, 3) relates that the Christians of Jerusalem fled to Pella when Vespasian prepared his attack. 2
1 Achtemeier, P. J., Harper & Row, & Society of Biblical Literature. (1985). Harper’s Bible dictionary (1st ed.) (768). San Francisco: Harper & Row.
2 Negev, A. (1990). The Archaeological encyclopedia of the Holy Land (3rd ed.). New York: Prentice Hall Press.
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30
EVIDENCE that Christians fled Jerusalem after 66 CE ...?
by EdenOne inwhat the ot says ... what sources of evidence do we have that account for the 'great escape' of the christians from jerusalem after cestius gallus siege of 66 ce ?
do we have any christian prespective about it?
since i concluded that all nt books were concluded before 66 ce (including revelation), what do we have in order to support the story that the jerusalem christians ran to pela ...etc....?
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Vidqun
Josephus writes in detail about Cestius Gallus' attack and hasty retreat from Jerusalem. He viewed Cestius Gallus as a coward. We know most Christians got out of Jerusalem because the gospel spread to Europe, Asia and Africa. Had the Christians remained in Jerusalem, their missionary work would have seriously been impeded. Fact of the matter is, by the turn of the century the Christians had spread all over the Roman Empire. Some Romans complained about them.
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25
Generation clarification
by zound injust wanted to clarify something.. [if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:officedocumentsettings> <o:allowpng /> </o:officedocumentsettings> </xml><!
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Vidqun
What helped me to put the verses in perspective is the subdivision of paragraphs in the Holman Christian Bible. The generation is the one that would witness the great tribulation. Problem solved!
Signs of the End of the Age
3 While He was sitting on the •Mount of Olives, the disciples approached Him privately and said, “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what is the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?” t
4 Then Jesus replied to them: “Watch out that no one deceives u you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the •Messiah,’ and they will deceive many. v 6 You are going to hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, because these things must take place, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines wx and earthquakes in various places. y 8 All these events are the beginning of birth pains. z
Persecutions Predicted
9 “Then they will hand you over for persecution, a and they will kill you. You will be hated by all nations because of My name. b 10 Then many will •take offense, betray one another and hate one another. 11 Many false prophets c will rise up and deceive many. 12 Because lawlessness d will multiply, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be delivered. e 14 This good news of the kingdom will be proclaimed in all the world f as a testimony to all nations. g And then the end will come. h
The Great Tribulation
15 “So when you see the abomination that causes desolation, ij spoken of by the prophet Daniel, k standing in the holy place” l (let the reader understand m), 16 “then those in Judea must flee to the mountains! 17 A man on the housetop n must not come down to get things out of his house. o 18 And a man in the field must not go back to get his clothes. 19 Woe to pregnant women and nursing mothers in those days! 20 Pray that your escape may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21 For at that time there will be great tribulation, p the kind that hasn’t taken place from the beginning of the world until now and never will again! 22 Unless those days were limited, no one would q survive. r But those days will be limited because of the elect. s
23 “If anyone tells you then, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ t or, ‘Over here!’ do not believe it! u 24 False messiahs v and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders to lead astray, w if possible, even the elect. 25 Take note: I have told you in advance. 26 So if they tell you, ‘Look, He’s in the wilderness!’ don’t go out; ‘Look, He’s in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the •Son of Man. x 28 Wherever the carcass is, there the vultures y will gather. z
The Coming of the Son of Man
29 “Immediately after the tribulation a of those days:
The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not shed its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the celestial powers will be shaken.
30 “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the peoples of the earth b will mourn; c and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. d 31 He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet, e and they will gather His elect from the four winds, f from one end of the sky to the other.
The Parable of the Fig Tree
32 “Now learn this parable g from the fig tree: As soon as its branch becomes tender and sprouts leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 In the same way, when you see all these things, recognize h that He i is near—at the door! j 34 I assure you: This generation will certainly not pass away until all these things take place.k 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, l but My words will never pass away. m
No One Knows the Day or Hour
36 “Now concerning that day and hour no one knows—neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son n—except the Father only. o[1]
• A mountain east of Jerusalem across the Kidron Valley
t 24:3 Mt 21:1; 24:27, 37, 39
u 24:4 Jr 29:8; Eph 5:6; Col 2:8; 2Th 2:3
• Or the Christ; the Greek word is Christos and means the anointed one. Where the NT emphasizes Christos as a name of our Lord or has a Gentile context, “Christ” is used. Where the NT Christos has a Jewish context, the title “Messiah” is used.
v 24:5 Mt 1:17; Eph 5:2
w 24:7 Other mss add epidemics
x 24:7 Ac 11:28; Rv 6:8
y 24:7 2Ch 15:6; Is 19:2
z 24:8–20 Lk 21:12–24
a 24:9 Or tribulation, or distress
b 24:9 Mt 10:17, 22; Jn 16:2
• The Greek word skandalizo has a root meaning of snare or trap but has no real English counterpart.
c 24:11 Is 44:25; Mt 7:15; 24:24; Mk 13:22; Lk 6:26; Ac 13:6; 2Pt 2:1; 1Jn 4:1
d 24:12 Mt 13:41; 2Th 2:3
e 24:13 Or be saved
f 24:14 Or in all the inhabited earth
g 24:14 Mt 4:23; Rm 10:18; Col 1:6, 23; 1Th 1:8
h 24:14 Lk 2:1; 4:5; Ac 11:28; 17:6; Rv 3:10; 16:14
i 24:15 Or abomination of desolation, or desolating sacrilege
j 24:15 Dn 9:27
k 24:15 Dn 9:27; 11:31; 12:11; Mk 13:14; Lk 21:20
l 24:15 Ac 6:13; 21:28
m 24:15 These are, most likely, Matthew’s words to his readers.
n 24:17 Or roof
o 24:17 1Sm 9:25; Mt 10:27; Lk 5:19; 12:3; 17:31; Ac 10:9
p 24:21 Dn 12:1; Jl 2:2; Mt 24:29; Rv 7:14
q 24:22 Lit short, all flesh would not
r 24:22 Or be saved or delivered
s 24:22 Mt 22:14; 24:24, 31; Mk 13:20, 22, 27; 1Tm 5:21; 2Tm 2:10; Rv 17:14
t 24:23 Lk 17:3; 21:28
u 24:23 Mk 11:24; Jn 6:64
v 24:24 Or False christs
w 24:24 Dt 13:1–3; Mt 24:11; Ac 8:9; 2Th 2:9–11; Rv 13:13–14; 16:14; 19:20
• Most frequent title Jesus used for Himself (Dn 7:13; Mt 8:20)
x 24:27 Zch 9:14; Mt 8:20; 24:3, 37, 39; Lk 17:24
y 24:28 Or eagles
z 24:28 Jb 39:30; Lk 17:37
a 24:29 Is 13:10; 24:23; Ezk 32:7; Jl 2:10, 31; 3:15; Zph 1:15; Rv 6:12–13
b 24:30 Or all the tribes of the land
c 24:30 Lit will beat; that is, beat their breasts
d 24:30 Dn 7:13; Zch 12:12; Mt 24:3; Rv 1:7
e 24:31 Is 27:13; 1Co 15:52; 1Th 4:16; Rv 8:2; 11:15
f 24:31 Dn 7:2; Zch 2:6; Rv 7:1
g 24:32 Mt 13:3, 34–36; 15:15; 21:33, 45; 22:1
h 24:33 Or things, you know
i 24:33 Or it; that is, summer
j 24:33 Jms 5:9; Rv 3:20
k 24:34 Mt 10:23; 16:28; 23:36
l 24:35 Ps 102:26; Is 51:6; Mt 5:18; Heb 12:27; 2Pt 3:10
m 24:35 Ps 119:89; Is 40:8; Mk 13:31; Lk 21:33; 1Pt 1:23, 25
n 24:36 Other mss omit nor the Son
o 24:36 Zch 14:7; Mt 25:13; Mk 13:32; Ac 1:7; 1Th 5:1–2
[1] The Holy Bible: Holman Christian standard version. 2009 (Mt 24:3–36). Nashville: Holman Bible Publishers.
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The apparent contradiction of John 3:13
by EdenOne inthe wts uses john 3:13 to prove that before jesus no one was taken to heaven.. in the nwt, john 3:13 reads:"moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the son of man.".
notice a difference to the king james bible:.
john 3:13 - "and no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the son of man who is in heaven.
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Vidqun
BOTR, you are missing the point. View this as a debate. There's no winners or losers here. You can side with the party of your choice, or you can remain neutral. Simple. Oh yes, and we would welcome the input and perspective of Orthodox Jewish NT scholars, they might just add another dimension to the debate. But may I add, I still need to meet an unbiased Orthodox Jew.
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The apparent contradiction of John 3:13
by EdenOne inthe wts uses john 3:13 to prove that before jesus no one was taken to heaven.. in the nwt, john 3:13 reads:"moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the son of man.".
notice a difference to the king james bible:.
john 3:13 - "and no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the son of man who is in heaven.
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Vidqun
BOTR, what Bible do you prefer? On what text is it based? Start there as a reference. The CGS of the NWT is based on the 1881 Westcott & Hort text. If you want to go there, be my guest. There is also something called the Majority text. This is based on the majority of MSS called Miniscules (later Greek texts in small letters). The King James Version relies heavily on these MSS. Then you have Standard (Nestle-Aland) text, where each Scripture in the NT has been weighed by a Committee of Greek scholars. This is also the text used by Bible Societies for translation purposes. The credentials of the individuals in the Committee are impeccable. Do look them up. If you ask me about legal matters, I will bow out gracefully. What I know of the law could be dangerous. But if you ask me about a specific scripture, translation, the original languages of the Bible, dictionaries and lexicons, you are bound to receive an answer, because those are my interests, which I have been studying for over thirty years. So, allow me to put forward the references. What you make of them is your business. Do ask Leo about the quality of the references? Let me know if there is a problem. As far as I know, she would endorse them as reliable. Yes, just like you we are interested in "intellectual and rigorous honesty," i.e., the truth of the matter. We take different roads to get there. If you have other insights, websites, etc. on the subject you want to share, feel free to do so, but let's not generalize. That is a road leading to nowhere.
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Generation clarification
by zound injust wanted to clarify something.. [if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:officedocumentsettings> <o:allowpng /> </o:officedocumentsettings> </xml><!
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Vidqun
Zound, perhaps you should read through the thread, "Is the Watchtower shy about repeating their new "generation" teaching?" I know it's long and arduous, but it'll give you a good idea what's at stake.
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The apparent contradiction of John 3:13
by EdenOne inthe wts uses john 3:13 to prove that before jesus no one was taken to heaven.. in the nwt, john 3:13 reads:"moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the son of man.".
notice a difference to the king james bible:.
john 3:13 - "and no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the son of man who is in heaven.
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Vidqun
Here's a few comments by Newman & Nida from the Translators handbook of John:
John 3:13
The purpose of this verse is to emphasize the heavenly origin of the Son of Man. John is the only one of the Gospel writers to emphasize this truth; it is basic to his theology. What gives the Son of Man his authority is his heavenly origin. The Son of Man … came down from heaven to tell men on earth about the things of heaven (verse 12). That is, the coming of the Son of Man is an act of divine revelation. But more than revelation is involved, as can be seen from the following verses—it is also an act of self-giving which leads to the death of the Son of Man.
Some scholars maintain that the verb has gone up refers to the Son of Man, and so implies that he had already ascended to heaven at the time these words were written. That is, they assume that this verse contains John’s comments about the Son of Man and that it reflects the post-resurrection theology of John, rather than the words of Jesus. It is thus one way of explaining the use of the perfect tense (has gone up).
However, the statement no one has ever gone up to heaven is possibly intended merely to deny that up to that time anyone had gone up to heaven to learn about the things of heaven. If this is the meaning, no reference to the ascension of the Son of Man is intended. Moreover, just as the first half of the verse denies that anyone else knows about the things of heaven, so the second half affirms that only the Son of Man has knowledge about those things, because his origin is in heaven. It is possible that the verse is intended to carry this meaning. However, in John’s Gospel the verb tenses are not always those one would expect, and it may be that the perfect tense here does not imply that the Son of Man has already ascended to heaven. For example, in 4:38 the past tense is used (TE V have sent) of an action which Jesus has not yet done, according to the time sequence of the Gospel. For translation it is suggested that the equivalent of a perfect tense (or even of a simple past tense) be used for has gone up, without the implication of “has gone up and is now there.”
Verse 13 involves a number of subtle problems for the translator. The use of the perfect tense “has gone up” would almost inevitably indicate this was a reference to the resurrection, and therefore would tend to be interpreted as a prophecy or an interpolation by the Gospel writer. To avoid such an implication the phrase except the Son of Man can be translated “except for the Son of Man, who will go up to heaven.” However, the focus of verse 13 is not on a future resurrection, but on the fact that the Son of Man has come down from heaven and is therefore in a position to reveal truth about God and his purposes for man’s salvation. In order to indicate this contrast vividly and in order to avoid the implication of an anachronism, it is possible to translate “but the Son of Man has come down from heaven.” Such a rendering avoids one difficulty by eliminating a possible interpretation. It seems best, however, simply to translate this verse, along with certain of its exegetical obscurities and ambiguities, and to leave the interpretation to commentators. Even though this solution might allow some slight confusion for the average reader, there is at least no serious distortion of the truth through a more or less “close translation.”
There is also a textual problem in this verse. Some ancient manuscripts read “and no one has ever gone up to heaven except the one who came down from heaven, the Son of Man, who is in heaven.” JB, NEB, Mf t , and Zü r all accept the words “who is in heaven” as a part of the original text. NA B , however, places them in brackets, and Zü r and NEB both have a footnote, indicating the absence of these words from some manuscripts. The other translations which include them give no note (except Segond). This phrase occurs in a few Greek manuscripts, in the Latin, and in a few Syriac versions. The textual evidence in its favour is weak and diverse. Yet the phrase is so difficult that it is hard to see why any manuscript would include it if it were not an original part of the text. The UB S Committee on the Greek text supports the shorter reading because of the strong manuscript evidence. They believe that the words “who is in heaven” were added later as a further Christological interpretation of this verse. [1]
TEV Today’s English Version
J B Jerusalem Bible
NEB New English Bible
Mft Moffatt
Zür Zürcher Bibel
NAB New American Bible
Zür Zürcher Bibel
NEB New English Bible
UBS United Bible Societies
[1] Newman, B. M., & Nida, E. A. (1993). A handbook on the Gospel of John. UBS Handbook Series (84–85). New York: United Bible Societies.