I graduate in a month as a management major but honestly I thought of most of this stuff when I was in high school...... it just took me a while to articulate it in a way other people could understand it. For a while the concepts were trapped inside and I didn't really have the ability to express it.
logical1
JoinedPosts by logical1
-
14
Great arguments, play devils advocate for me
by logical1 inpretend you're a faithful witness and devils advocate these arguments for me to help fine tune them:.
fallacy of perfection:.
"there will be no more sickness and death in the new earth...".
-
-
-
14
Great arguments, play devils advocate for me
by logical1 inpretend you're a faithful witness and devils advocate these arguments for me to help fine tune them:.
fallacy of perfection:.
"there will be no more sickness and death in the new earth...".
-
-
logical1
Pretend you're a faithful witness and devils advocate these arguments for me to help fine tune them:
Fallacy of perfection:
"There will be no more sickness and death in the new earth..."
unless of course you sin, then you will die.
But there won't be pain and suffering.... so we just won't care if our loved one dies even if they sinned?
What happens if someone commits murder? Does God prevent them from murdering? If so that would mean they don't have free will. If God allows them to murder, and resurrects the person they killed, what about the pain they felt when they were killed? Are they given "spiritual morphine" to cope with it? Is their memory erased?
I had it argued that our desire to sin would be erased, but obviously being perfect doesn't stop that because Adam and Eve were perfect.
"But they gave in to temptation" I was told.
How is that any different from now? Does perfection = superior self control and intelligence?
Further, what about malicious intent? Satan supposedly loves to do really messed up things, yet he was originally perfect. He didn't give in to temptation, he was deviant and warped. What is to say people in the new system won't be like this? How can you prevent them from practicing their deivation without limiting free will?
Furthermore let's critically analyze perfection:
You eliminate sickness, easily done.
You eliminate death... not so easily done.
There are two ways you can die if sickness is out of the picture, accidents and malice (suicide included in malice).
In order to prevent malice, you would have to limit free will which I discussed above.
But what about limiting accidents?
Today in our present condition, you would be conisdered negligent if you left your car in neutral on a hill and it rolled down the hill and killed someone.
In the "new system" when we are "perfect" we would need to have superior intellect to calculate advanced cause and effect to prevent accidents. For example:
Parking your truck in a specific spot might be negligent, because exactly a week later a tornado would come and blow your truck into your house killing your brother while he sits in his favorite chair. In our current level of intelligence and ability to calculate cause and effect, leaving a car in neutral on a hill would be considered negligent, but parking your car where a tornado will pick it up a week later would be considered a freak accident.
If Jehovah gave us superior intellect to calculate advanced cause and effect, it might be considered negligent to not forsee a tornado a week later tossing our truck into someone.
So everything is fine and dandy right?
Wrong!
Intelligence is directly proportionate to ability to calculate cause and effect. Unless you have INFINITE intelligence you will never be able to prevent accidents completely, you might be able to reduce them to a very low amount but they will never be completely eliminated unless you have INFINITE intelligence to calculate the INFINITE possibilities of every action.
For example, you could park your truck there and realize that it is safe there from all tornados for the next week, year, decade, century etc. But since your intelligence is directly proportionate to how far in the future you could predict (by an unknown ratio to us lowly humans), you would never be able to completely eliminate accidents unless your intelligence is infinite.
So Jehovah would give us infinite intelligence/wisdom right?
But Jehovahs wisdom/intelligence is infinite!
We will NEVER be equal to Jehovah in wisdom. The bible constantly reinforces his wisdom and intelligence is unmatched, so this could not happen.
There is no way for both us and Jehovah to have infinite intelligence/wisdom and Jehovah to still be more wise/intelligent than us.
Infinity = Infinity, it is as whole and legitimate as any real integer. There is no such thing as a lesser infinity, therefore saying that Jehovah has greater infinite wisdom than us is like saying that a light is on and off at the same time, or that I am exactly six feet tall and you are exactly six feet tall but you are taller than me.
If we are not infinitely intelligent/wise we could not prevent ALL accidents from happening on our own. Therefore Jehovah would have to intervene in our lives to prevent them, essentially removing our free will.
In order to make us truly immortal and autonomous, we would need wisdom and intelligence equal to his which would not happen.
You might argue that we won't have free will, but this would be against God's purpose as if he didn't want us to have free will then what logic would there be for him allowing Satan to run wild and all the suffering we experience daily?
I won't even begin to touch the argument of "Jehovah cannot lie" yet "Jehovah is all powerful", most sane Christians respond that he can lie but choose not to. Witnesses seem convinced he cannot lie.
-
16
Does the WT have spies here?
by logical1 indoes bethel have spies here that are exempt from the "no looking at apostate material" in order to "protect" the org?
i.e.
their job is to view apostate material so they can find out who they can send copyright infringement claims to?.
-
-
logical1
Does bethel have spies here that are exempt from the "no looking at apostate material" in order to "protect" the org? I.e. their job is to view apostate material so they can find out who they can send copyright infringement claims to?
-
2
Old family friend won't go away
by logical1 inmy mom lives far away and still "holds vigilant" to her beliefs, but i hardly ever hear about her going to a meeting (always has an excuse).. her friend that lives near my uncles house (i am often at my uncles house visiting him) is always coming by making small talk with them to leave magazines.
it's kind of hilarious because not only i, but the entire house now hides in the back when she pulls in the driveway.
i told my uncle that even though it's the "easier way" he shouldn't accept the magazines, since thats an open invitation for her to come back.. i like to compare her to the crackhead that visists my house every so often.
-
-
logical1
nope, i guess i could picket the KH all i wanted and walk in the next day and start studying again right? lol but once im baptised its an unforgivable sin
-
26
hey
by jnrtigbfxd0 inhey everybody im new here.
currently a pioneer in my early 20's, started straight out of high school, now wanting to go to college and working on getting out of pioneering.
also a former bethelite, ill make a thread on that soon.. .
-
-
logical1
lol, if you knew all this why would you waste your life at bethel?
-
2
Old family friend won't go away
by logical1 inmy mom lives far away and still "holds vigilant" to her beliefs, but i hardly ever hear about her going to a meeting (always has an excuse).. her friend that lives near my uncles house (i am often at my uncles house visiting him) is always coming by making small talk with them to leave magazines.
it's kind of hilarious because not only i, but the entire house now hides in the back when she pulls in the driveway.
i told my uncle that even though it's the "easier way" he shouldn't accept the magazines, since thats an open invitation for her to come back.. i like to compare her to the crackhead that visists my house every so often.
-
-
logical1
My mom lives far away and still "holds vigilant" to her beliefs, but I hardly ever hear about her going to a meeting (always has an excuse).
Her friend that lives near my uncles house (I am often at my uncles house visiting him) is always coming by making small talk with them to leave magazines. It's kind of hilarious because not only I, but the entire house now hides in the back when she pulls in the driveway. I told my uncle that even though it's the "easier way" he shouldn't accept the magazines, since thats an open invitation for her to come back.
I like to compare her to the crackhead that visists my house every so often. He invites himself in, begs for beer and ciggs till someone finally gives him some, makes incoherent crackhead small talk with us (he thinks we are enjoying his engaging conversation and consider it a fair trade for the loss of our time and money) and leaves. Basically, by giving in to the begging crackhead (cuz it's easier) its the same thing as him just taking the magazine from her. I explained she has absolutely ZERO interest in their well being, which is obvious because she always morphs whatever stupid conversation shes having into a poorly transitioned watchtower introduction.
Next time she comes, if I'm there, I'm going to come to the door with the Wikipedia article on Russells tombstone up on my laptop and a hysterical smile on my face.
-
I submitted (this forum) to a directory
by logical1 ini work with some people that started a forum directory site.
it's in the process of growing (just barely launched this week) but they wanted me to help add to it, so i added jehovahs-witness.net to it.
if you guys want (and i would probably suggest) you can go and vote for the site (or leave a review for it).
-
logical1
I work with some people that started a forum directory site. It's in the process of growing (just barely launched this week) but they wanted me to help add to it, so I added jehovahs-witness.net to it. If you guys want (and I would probably suggest) you can go and vote for the site (or leave a review for it). The SEO is optimized in such a way that once the site gets popular it will probably rank pretty high when people search for "jehovahs witness forums" etc.
Anyway, I thought I would help out a friend, and at the same time it seems like a good way to expose this site to people who search for "jehovahs witnesses".
You can view the Jehovah's Witness category page and vote/review here: http://tinyurl.com/7nlkv5b
I used tinyurl to shorten the link, it shouldn't spam you (that I know of, if it does let me know and I will remove it)
As far as I know, all the other sites in that category are "apostate" too, but I think it would be pretty funny if a "pro-witness" site got on there and tried to start a forum voting war, needless to say they would probably lose :)
-
7
I started a small blog with theories I have had over the years, would like input
by logical1 ini'm not going to post the link here as i both want it to be completely anonymous (no connection to me on any other website) and i don't want to violate forum rules.
they are theories i developed based on being raised as a jw and taking philosophy classes.
please reply to this if you'd like to check it out and give me feedback and i will pm you the link.. thanks.
-
-
logical1
edit: nevermind figured it out, reply sent
-
7
I started a small blog with theories I have had over the years, would like input
by logical1 ini'm not going to post the link here as i both want it to be completely anonymous (no connection to me on any other website) and i don't want to violate forum rules.
they are theories i developed based on being raised as a jw and taking philosophy classes.
please reply to this if you'd like to check it out and give me feedback and i will pm you the link.. thanks.
-
-
logical1
I'm not going to post the link here as I both want it to be completely anonymous (no connection to me on any other website) and I don't want to violate forum rules. They are theories I developed based on being raised as a JW and taking philosophy classes. Please reply to this if you'd like to check it out and give me feedback and I will PM you the link.
Thanks
-
39
Are You Afraid To Die Alone?
by minimus ini know of someone that is concerned that she will be all alone when she dies.. are you afraid to die alone??
?.
-
-
logical1
I am not afraid of death, as noone will know when they have died. I am only afraid of becoming disfigured and living with it.