http://www.familiesagainstcultteachings.org/education-about-cults/destructive-groups/.
google will put up in the number one slot who ever is paying them the highest amount of cash, i was surprised to see what changed over the last two days, what do you make of this?
when i typed in jehovah's witnesses news the following link and story came up!
Keep in mind Google only sells AD spots, if they have a higher ranking than the borg on Google without an AD it is due to good old fashioned SEO.
On a side note, lol to the DDOS protection script. Looks like a lot of cults attempt to take their site down via denial of service.
so this morning a young gun elderoid type of about twenty-five gave a pt about faith.. he used what i thought was a real stupid illustration:.
you are told that you must leave in your car this afternoon and drive to florida.
you would be verrrrrrryy worried.
I don't think it's that bad of an illustration. I drive a new, reliable (german) car and even I would hesitate and check the car out and try to remember what I could about the last time it was serviced before I went on a long uninterrupted road trip.
Also most JW's drive old pieces of junk and they probably genuinely have to worry about the condition of the car, and would need time for a mechanic to check it out.
http://watchtowerdocuments.org/confidential-news-from-spain/.
the following email was sent to watchtower documents recently from a witness insider in spain.
congratulations for all the information you have given on the legal framework of the watchtower.. in spain, the watchtower is following the instructions coming from patterson that works exclusively with the law firm baker & mckenzie.
"
Bethel is self-insured.
They have mini-clinics and doctors, even dentists, on staff for routine cases.
For anything more serious, such as surgery, Bethelites would have to go to a"worldly" hospital. Costs are borne by the WTS out of their general funds. Or maybe they have a dedicated fund for that - not sure. Anyways, no health insurance is involved.
And yes, if Joe Average-Bethelite develops a condition that will be expensive to treat (cancer, lupus, etc.) it's out-the-door-you-go."
Are the doctors actual JW's or just contracted?
I wonder what happens if the doctors find an STD. Do they report it up the chain?
Are WT doctors bound by HIPPA?
i haven't been to a meeting in 7 years but i have cruised through the parking lot of about 4 kh's now during peak meeting times and been surprised to see 20 or less cars in the parking lot.. it always seemed when i was younger that the parking lot was a lot more full..
I haven't been to a meeting in 7 years but I have cruised through the parking lot of about 4 KH's now during peak meeting times and been surprised to see 20 or less cars in the parking lot.
It always seemed when I was younger that the parking lot was a lot more full.
"i would speculate (the house) to be the prophets.
he was the dominant person, and he had the best, the biggest and the nicest, cain said while walking the property, which has since reverted to allegan county, records show.. one of the items cain found in the house: a new world translation of holy scriptures.
it was ragged, crumbling to dust at the corners.".
" “I would speculate (the house) to be the prophet’s. He was the dominant person, and he had the best, the biggest and the nicest,” Cain said while walking the property, which has since reverted to Allegan County, records show.
One of the items Cain found in the house: A New World Translation of Holy Scriptures. It was ragged, crumbling to dust at the corners."
http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2013/06/house_of_judah_what_police_fou.html#/0
i know a mass exodus is about as likely as peace between the arabs and israelis, but just imagine if it did happen, most of the r&f jdubs, and in fact most of the r&f of any religion.. the nasty guys at the top would be left up the proverbial creek with no paddle.. therefore it is the rank and file members of any religion that keep it going, so they are, if ignorantly and without malice, supporting the nasty guys.. the gb of the wt, the mad mullahs, the pope and his coterie of kiddy-fiddlers would all come crashing down.. therefore i shall no longer make excuses for the r&f of any movement that is rotten, they may be ignorant, but that is no excuse, and by supporting the edifice they are as guilty as the perpetrators who suicide bomb, murder abortion performing doctors, and all the child abusers within these organizations.. if you give your support just a little bit you have to carry some of the blame.. .
" If the org truly believed what they were saying, they would use the most effective means of communication, TV, Internet. They would engage with the world & academics in debates. That's what you would do if you truly wanted to get your message out. JWs would get marketing degrees!!!!"
If they have nothing to publish they have no reason to solicit donations for the "world wide work"
If they were on TV, Youtube and academically debating they would have no reason to solicit donations. Advertising costs pale in comparison to outdated printing presses.
If they have no reason to solicit donations for the world wide work they can't effectively launder money and skim off the top like they do.
pretend you're a faithful witness and devils advocate these arguments for me to help fine tune them:.
fallacy of perfection:.
"there will be no more sickness and death in the new earth...".
"If, however, you discover the ultimate argument that is so subtly devastating as to shock one Jehovah's Witness after another into reality I will gladly donate $1000 to your bronze statue."
You simply have to eliminate their resistance to talk to apostates. If you can break that barrier you have a chance. Comparing the WT warning against apostates to a wife beating husband warning his victim wife against people who will say he doesn't really love her is a devastatingly effective argument. It paints a picture many can relate to, and nullifies the catch all defense of "I was warned smart people would try to convince me!"
Essentially, if you can get your target to admit that a man who beats his wife is evil, and the beaten wife who blames herself instead of the husband is misled, you now have a wedge that you can move back and forth until they get it.
They will never admit it immeadietly like you say, but over time I think this will eat at them.
The only way to truly "shock" witnesses into reality is to buy time slots for a short 30 second commercial on national television.
If you make the commercial too long, they will be warned against it by the society, so you have to make it so brief that by the time you find the remote it's over and the message has been played.
The message should be something short and simple, like the example I gave above. It should be illustrated visually and not revealed until the end of the commercial that it's even anything to do with an oppressive religion. This tricks the guarded viewer into watching it before they have a chance to shut the information down, and connects them emotionally with the message.
Why is this effective? Because unlike a valid argument after someoen has received doctrine, they have a defense built up. Once you receive the WT doctrine any information you receive is heavily filtered.
When you receive a message without realizing its relevancy until later it's almost the equivalent of the "born in" witness having a moment of clairty when they hear how it applies, since they did not have their filter up when they received the message.
For example, I tell you a thirty second description of a graphic love scene. At the end I say, "by the way, the story was about your ex girlfriend and her new boyfriend last night"
Now it's stuck with them, they were forced to listen.
If you guys are interested in making a commercial someone should start a kickstarter campaign. I feel bad though because it will ultimately result in the WT banning television lol.
pretend you're a faithful witness and devils advocate these arguments for me to help fine tune them:.
fallacy of perfection:.
"there will be no more sickness and death in the new earth...".
Sorry if I re-invented the wheel, I will admit I have not read the books. I forgot about them actually, I will have to check them out.
I posted portions of this on Yahoo Answers and actually got witnesses to listen (by telling them I was never baptised therefore not an apostate, but rather a strayed sheep).
I was told by one that it was "too boring" to read. I was like, are you kidding me? Your faith is too boring to discuss? What are you doing preaching it then!?!?
Another quoted a few scriptures, but he simply posted an argument I already countered in the text. He said that questioning doctrine causes dissention among the brothers. Of course when I pressed him about what's wrong with disssention and how it's any different than the first bible students dissenting against christendom he had no answer.
I realize it is pretty much impossible to logically prove to someone God does not exist and I wouldn't try to do that, but I thought my perfection argument about infinite wisdom with the cause and effect/accident thing was pretty sound.
Has that specific argument been discussed somewhere before on here or in a book? I couldn't find it so if so please point me to the link.
Also, ucantnome what did you mean by infinite knowledge is the difference? Are you saying infinite knowledge rather than infinite intelligence is needed to cause/effect every action in order to prevent accidents? If so the same argument applies, how could we be given infinite knowledge without having more equal God?
Also I don't think you can have infinite knowledge... knowledge is defined as acquired facts, concepts, etc. You could also define knowledge as data, for example you wouldn't have infinite knowledge until you measured the diamater of every rock in the universe, etc, but eventually you would have. I don't think knowledge, by definition can be infinite.
pretend you're a faithful witness and devils advocate these arguments for me to help fine tune them:.
fallacy of perfection:.
"there will be no more sickness and death in the new earth...".
I'm kind of hoping a former (or current) elder will comment on this and give me some rebuttals I might not expect.
pretend you're a faithful witness and devils advocate these arguments for me to help fine tune them:.
fallacy of perfection:.
"there will be no more sickness and death in the new earth...".
PUNISHMENT FALLACY
In the new earth we will be put to death instantly if we sin, yet today we are allowed to sin and repent. Why is that?
Witness: "Because we're imperfect"
But the Israelites worshipped a false idol and were ordered to be killed on the spot. They were not perfect so why are we given a free pass today?
Witness: "Because Jehovah evaluates the circumstances and that was a different time"
But if he evaluates the circumstances and punishes accordingly to imperfect humans, why would we have a pass today and not back then? If you are going to grant a pass, wouldn't it be to the israelites instead of us since we are way more educated and should be held to a higher standard?
Witness: "....."
I think the real reason we are given a "pass" today is because the society would kill us if they could, but they can't so they just "spiritually kill" us by disfellowshipping us.
Essentially the only difference between the new earth and this one is we get a free pass if we sin now but in the new earth we will be instantly killed because there will be no neutral earthly government to keep the Watchtower in check.
APOSTASY FALLACY
The society does not allow free thinking, they should allow people to comment on their opinion of doctrine.
Witness: "But they do!"
No, they comment during the Watchtower study with carefully crafted guidelines in how the scripture or Watchtower teaching "applies" to their life. They know damn well if they challenge any core doctrine that the secret service....err I mean elders will whisk them away to the back room .
Witness: "Yes but that is because it would be stupid to challenge something as concrete as the core doctrine, it would be like a pilot telling the airline he wanted to land in a corn field for no reason, of course they would revoke his pilot license temporarily to question his judgement"
No that's a terrible analogy. With that logic the founder of the religion and the original "bible students" were pilots that wanted to land in corn fields because they questioned established doctrine and wanted to craft their own.
The real reason the Watchtower doesn't allow people to question core doctrine is because if they did, the meeting would devolve into a six hour 150 person debate on the interpretation of one scripture. While this would lead to great enlightenment and free thinking, each congregation would form its own beliefs based on the arguments of local members and the Watchtower's control over its followers would crumble.
If the Watchtowers primary objective was not control, the Watchtower study would consist of reading chapters from the bible and having the congregation members comment on their interpretations of it. This is what the bible students likely did and is healthy, free thinking and critical analysis.
Unfortunately, this would provide no logical reason for the Watchtower to publish anything. If they have nothing to publish they have no logical reason to demand donations beyond what is needed to pay for a local meeting place.
If the Watchtower has no money being sent to "corporate" they lose their ability to pay a bunch of people $60 a month to operate a glorified retirement home for the governing body.
The rest of the money goes to publishing more propaganda so they can solicit more members and therefore more donations. The rest of the money is hoarded by the religions leaders, almost a billion dollars worth, which they hide in various tax free assets. It's the biggest Ponzi scheme ever but far more destructive because it ruins lives not just bank accounts.
Witness: "I was warned about sharp tongued apostates like you! Satan is inspiring you to twist your words to hurt my faith! The bible warned that apostates would say convincing things to do this, this is a fulfillment of a prophecy!"
Calling that a fulfillment of a prophecy is like an abusive husband telling his wife "I predict that people will call me an abusive person because I hit you, when in reality I do it because I love you"
That is not a "prophecy", that is an evil person erasing any doubt that they weren't naive innocent in their abuse by calculating the cause and effect of their vile actions. Apostates are inspired to warn not by Satan, but by a desire to save others from the harm they faced.
This is the same reason victims of Ponzi schemes flood message boards to warn others so they don't lose their money, or in the case of apostates... free life. It is human nature to do this. Apostates are not puppets of a supernatural force. They have the very same motivation you have to spread what you believe is a "warning" about armageddon, they want to save others from a threat.
Witness: "But all the apostates are evidence of this being the true religion! The fact that no other religions have apostates like this proves we are true"
Really? Pretty sure the Mormons are bigger and probably have MORE apostates. The reason Amish, Witnesses and Mormons have "apostates" and other religions don't is because they have much tighter control measures than more innocent religions.
Witness: "........"
HONESTY FALLACY
I won't even begin to touch the argument of "Jehovah cannot lie" yet "Jehovah is all powerful", most sane Christians respond that he can lie but choose not to. Witnesses seem convinced he cannot lie.
