I know for fact, the Hutterites an Omish(and I think Mennonite) are completely pacifist. So I do not see how the JW's can claim to be unique. -OM
openminded
JoinedPosts by openminded
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peacable = true religion
by Moxy inplease help me out a bit with this.. jws, as a religion, are taught to live peacably.
they do not go to war nor will they generally support it.. now, if i were to play the role of an apologist, i think i would just keep hamering on this point.
"catholic killing catholic and protestant killing protestant" was such a great phrase and ties in so nicely with johm 13:35. now, let me play devils advocate and hear some rebuttals.
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How would you respond to this?
by openminded ini got this letter today from a friend of my dad who i have not seen in years.
please respond to any or all of it as you see fit.
it pretty much sums up witness mentality.
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openminded
Pretty sad story Blue.
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How would you respond to this?
by openminded ini got this letter today from a friend of my dad who i have not seen in years.
please respond to any or all of it as you see fit.
it pretty much sums up witness mentality.
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openminded
Well this is my first response. Hope I am not opening a can of worms. I would like to put together a rebuttle to the college issue first. Any and all input is very,very helpful. -OM
Hello XXXX-
Good to hear from you! I hope all is well with the XXXX Clan! I have just had a few minutes to read your letter and I see you bring up several different subjects. Here are a few I picked out(at first glance):
*Do JW's have Gods backing?
*Is college for Christians?
*Can a Christian think independently?
*Is the JW view of apocalyptic prophesy correct?
*WT Doctrine in general
*Racial prejudiceI would be glad to discuss all of these topics with you, as they do interest me. The problem for me is, I don't have time at this second. When I get time, I will respond to each point(1 at a time) as presented in your letter. One thing I will say now is that my opinion's are in no way an attempt to weaken or lesson your faith in whatever religious ideas or dogma you choose to follow. I am confident that we can agree to disagree on certain issues without becoming offended or hurt. I feel that any person or organization who claims to be God's one and only mouthpiece on earth would be prepared to answer a lot of questions.
On a personal note, I am a senior pursuing a Business degree at the University of XXXX. My real academic interest is sociology/anthropology and I have been incorporating such studies into my degree. I plan to continue on with graduate studies in 2003. I work full time for a large XXXX manufacturer(since April 97)as a trafficking/production manager and I own and run a small vending business. I recently bought a home in xxxx. My son(who I don't think you have ever met) is almost 6 and started K-Garten yesterday. He and I are big sport fans and I am an assistant coach on his youth soccer team. My wife xxxx(of almost 8yrs) works as a property/casualty-insurance underwriter for a firm in yyyy. xxxx and I are really busy with our new home. My brother xxxx signed a 1 year contract to teach English in France and is leaving in about two weeks. I will be visiting him there this winter. He lives here(for now) in xxxx and is soon to graduate with a double degree in French and International Studies from xxxx State Univ. xxxx(my df'd brother) and I are close and enjoy playing trivia at a local resturant in our spare time. He volunteers at the ER in a local hospital and I plan on taking over his position while he is gone.
I have to run for now but will catch up with you later. -OM
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How would you respond to this?
by openminded ini got this letter today from a friend of my dad who i have not seen in years.
please respond to any or all of it as you see fit.
it pretty much sums up witness mentality.
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openminded
I got this letter today from a friend of my dad who I have not seen in years. Please respond to any or all of it as you see fit. It pretty much sums up Witness mentality. Any help you could lend here would be appreciated greatly. Thanks in Advance OM
Dear OM,
this note is quite long. If it comes compressed I can send an attachment
with the letter in .rft format you can read with most word processors.I have been chatting with your mom on the internet. She has found a new toy,
the Internet, and is having a ball it seems. You probably know Mary and I
visited with your folks about two years ago on our way to Washington and
Oregon. It was really nice to see them after all this time. I wondered how
you and your brother and sisters were doing. Kay told me that you were having
trouble with the Witnesses as an organization an regretted being a Witnesses
yourself, or something to that effect . She said you considered yourself a
slave and thought they had misled you. If this is NOT how you feel let me
know what the true story is. But in the context of this note I will use that
as a basis for discussion.I feel for you on this subject for I have felt that way too at times. There
were times I felt the WTS was totally out to lunch. Many of JW's opponents
also try to imply the WTS is misleading its members. Are they really? Is it
possible that theirs is an incorrect perspective. Does the WTS have Jehovah's
backing or not? That is a key question.Kay said you were going to college now. (What are you taking?) College was at
one time discouraged and that may also be a point of contention with you.
Some elders today still feel that we should not go to college. However, the
WTS has not really said that a person can not go to college. It really is a
personal choice since the Bible does not prohibit college. Have you
considered carefully why the WTS discourages it? For one simple reason, in
college people subject themselves to an environment that is anti-Christian.
Not only are God denying doctrines taught, evolution is a good example, but
centers for higher education discourage belief in God subtly but emphatically
and pressure young people to conform to their view. College also encourages
independent thinking, a view that allows people pick and choose what they
believe. That has led many to conclude that almost all things are okay and
that people have the right to set their own standard of right and wrong.
Since Adam and Eve this has been the trend but did their independent thinking
for their good or harm?For just these few points you can see why this is unhealthy environment. Can
a Christian subject himself to such an environment and remain unaffected?
Many young JWs have succeeded but many have not. To succeed one must have a
very strong personality, one that will not go along with the God denying or
defying values taught there.The question is whether you are looking for an excuse to turn from God to
some other path or do you feel some other path is correct while the Witnesses
are wrong? If you have a strong faith in God then you will determine what he
requires and what standards he sets and attempt to conform to them. If you
want to be independent from God, making our own choices, you must ask
yourself if it is safe to do this? If we are living in the last part of the
last days, as prophesy seems to indicate, is it really worth the risk? If we
fall from God's favor now, will we have time to recover? Will we even try to?
Are we spiritually strong enough to weather the storm? Some make it through
college undeterred but some come away confused or turn away from the faith.
Where are you really trying to accomplish? This is not a trivial question
since it is a life or death matter, for you and your family.The world we are living in is changing so fast that it is hard to keep up.
When I was studying in the early 1970s no JW would consider going to college.
But then finding a job without a college education was much easier than today
and good paying jobs were available. But even today good, well paying jobs
are available without a college education. But even good paying professionals
are at risk as you have noticed by all the layoffs.Another problem I noticed is that many jobs that require a college education,
professional type jobs, require you to work overtime without additional pay.
Employers can expect professionals to work overtime and that takes time away
from family and religious activities. As a programmer I worked up to 18 hours
a day and did not get paid overtime. One year I worked 33% overtime and much
of that was in a six month period. I was tired all the time, missed many
meetings, did not have time to study the Bible and it affected my home life
adversely. So a professional job may not be as great as you imagine. Take
your dad for example. He has a good, high paying job, but has it made him
truly happy? The Bible shows that people that have a modest job and put God
first are happier. Ever wonder why that is?Blue collar jobs may require overtime but that is discouraged because the
employer has to pay more for the work done, so they are reluctant to make
people work longer days. Also, some blue collar jobs pay as well, if not
better than, professional jobs. Masons and plumbers got paid more than I did
and I was making over $60,000 a year.When you consider that you can start to see why they encourage vocational
training rather than the longer expense of time and money that college
requires. Many people are financially destitute after paying the high fees
for college and it can take a decade to recover. With this in mind, is the
society's recommendation really wrong? Does it make the WTS a slave master?
Can you say they do not really care about you or are they trying to help you
take a safer approach to financial security? Are they really bad "parents"
for trying to protect us?Lets look at this from another point of view. Many think the WTS is
misleading people doctrinally as well. If you were responsible for extracting
people from an immoral world, teaching them what God requires and aiding them
to continue to follow God's requirements for the rest of their life, what
sort of parameters or boundaries would you define? Would you let them do
whatever they wanted, let them choose for themselves what to do and suggest
parameters that would allow people pursue wealth and material benefits? OR
would you suggest a simpler more modest and safer course that would allow
ample time for family and spiritual things? What really are the most
important things to concentrate on today? How can we most wisely use our time
and resources? If this world is really coming to an end of what benefit world
a worldly course provide?The answer is obvious but how would YOU go about directing a large crowd if
you were responsible for six million people? What safety factors would you
define? How restrictive would you get? Would you be cautious or throw caution
to the wind? Remember you are responsible for six million lives and God is
holding you accountable. Not only that but you are responsible for warning
six billion other people that a storm is coming and you also have to prepare
them to survive it. How would you feel if that responsibility were on your
shoulders? What would you do?You have a son. Do you allow him to make all of his own decisions? Or do you
set parameters, looking our for his future welfare? What do you want him to
turn out like? The rest of the world or someone who worships Jehovah? If you
believe this world is really coming to an end then having faith in someone
that can save you starts to become increasingly important.Consider too that you are going to have a bunch of critics, who think they
know better how to get the job done, telling you that what you are doing is
wrong and too restrictive? Frankly, I would not want such a job. Would you? I
doubt that I could handle the pressure. But a small group of anointed men
have taken that responsibility on their shoulders. Wow! What a job!!! Why did
they do that? Could it be because God selected them and gave them the
responsibility and also the latitude to carry out his instructions in a
reasonable way, a way that not all will agree with?There must be 6 billion opinions on how to worship God or if there is a God
or which religion is teaching truth. So what would you choose to focus on if
you were chosen to lead this group? Others may do it differently, but would
they do it better? Christendom and non-Christian religions are doing it
differently but it certainly is not better. You will have to admit the
governing body is succeeding in developing better people while the rest of
the world is floundering. If God is not behind them can you explain why that
is?What really is important today? An education? Money and all the stuff it can
buy? Free will? Sex? Marriage? High paying job? Friends? Jehovah? What is
reasonable and what is restrictive? What is overly restrictive and what is
prudent? The world is eagerly pursuing a course, actually many courses, but
are they happier for it? Not if I interpret what I see on the news correctly.
More and more people are unhappy and are totally lost as to what path to
take. As a result more and more resort to violence due to sheer frustration.
Marriages are breaking up at warp speed. The world is looking for happiness
in all the wrong places. Are they finding it? Actually there are so many
problems facing mankind that it totally baffles any who would try to provide
a remedy.But now look at JWs. They have lower paying jobs, go to meetings all the time
and go out and try to find other that might like to adopt such an austere
life style. Are they confused? Are they unhappy? Are they dying from AIDS?
Getting divorced? No! They apply the counsel from God's Word that the WTS is
providing in their literature. Are they really worse off than the rest of the
world? Isn't it true that they are happier and more well adjusted than people
in the world? So were they deceived or enlightened?If you are looking to the world for happiness I don't think you will find
that the world is happier than we are. Are you truly happier now that you
have adopted a critical view of the WTS? Quite the opposite probably. If you
really look at the world you will see a bunch of people running around doing
this or that trying to fill their lives with something that will give them
purpose and make them happy. Isn't it really telling that they never achieve
happiness? Why not? Could it be that they are not following the right advice?
And consider that if the Bible is really true and everlasting life and
paradise is a possibility, is the worlds approach really justified? Will it
prevail?Now lets take a different tact. If the WTS organization is not really doing
God's will then who is? Does it make sense that God would have an
organization in the last days that would lead people to the road to life or
not? If so then which organization is God using? Frankly there is not another
organization that is collecting people out of the world and teaching them
what God requires. I came out of Christendom and know they are not doing this
job. Preachers get on TV and tell people what they want to hear, "Believe in
Jesus and you will be saved." That is pretty much the content of what is
taught and that is all that people want to hear. Don't bother then with
morality issues, they don't want to hear that. Don't tell them to live modest
lives, they don't want to hear that either. People want to get all the gusto
out of lives they can. Why? Because they really do not have the faith in the
future God defines, that there is going to be a paradise and people will have
everlasting lives. Do you really know any non-JWs that live their life in
such a way that indicates he believes in paradise or everlasting life? I
doubt it. They live their lives like this one is all there is.The WTS is teaching us to love others, even enemies. Had Christendom done
that there would not have been two world wars. JWs are taught a high moral
code. Do you find that in any other religion? People live together and others
pronounce themselves homosexuals and others practice illegal business
practices but continue to be accepted, respected members of their religions.
Does that make sense to you? Can the world ever achieve happiness under such
circumstances? We are taught prejudice is wrong, whether racial, or ethnic or
national. What other religion truly brings people together from all these
backgrounds peacefully?You see JWs or the WTS as imperfect. What do you expect? God has been using
imperfect people to guide imperfect people for millennium. God has always
done that and the direction the leader takes was not always beneficial. Moses
did not do everything right, did he? David made decisions that caused people
died in war. Did that mean David did not have God's support or that God was
not really using him? Of course not. Did God correct matters over time.
You've got it! Even thought the members of the governing body make mistakes
or restrict us more than we consider necessary, does not mean God is not
using them today. Think long and hard about that question. And have you
noticed that they dol make changes along the line that bring us more in tune
with the Bible or with the times we are living in. But they never compromise
God's laws to do that, but Christendom compromises and so do their followers.
Which course do you really want for you and your family?BUT, if God is using them then just when can we follow and when do we refuse?
What does God expect us to do? Can we really pick and choose what we want to
do or should we be obedient to those taking the lead? This is an especially
important question, in this independent thinking world, when we see evidence
that God really is backing them and the evidence really supports that
conclusion.Take a look at the world today. Do we see people doing what they are told or
is everyone trying to decide what they want to do? People today are more
independent than ever before. NO ONE wants to be told what to do. Few want to
do what God says but what to set their own standards. In part that is why we
have over 25,000 religions based on Christ. People are looking for a religion
that will let then think they are saved while not doing anything to warrant
salvation That is also why we have so much unrest and immorality in the
world. People want to do it their way. The DO NOT want to knuckle down and do
what God requires.Where do you fit in all of this? Are you really trying to do what God wants
or do you want to do your own thing? Or are you trying to do both? Do you
really feel the WTS is misleading you or is it that you do not want to follow
their lead? Can't you see what the WTS is trying to do for you? Can't you see
their concern? Do you really think they want to restrict you beyond reason?
Make you miserable? A Christian has restrictions that are imposed by God but
we make decisions on how to live our lives. Some conform and some do not.
Would we be better off without laws? Could we make better laws ourselves?
Even those who do conform do not all do it the same way because there are a
variety of valid methods. College might allow you to better support your
family and provide greater measure of financial security. But if college
makes you so independent that you question God or leave his organization will
you really benefit. College or not, you get to choose but at the same time we
must serve Jehovah. The latter leads to everlasting life but the former will
not. You are a grown man, you get to choose what you do, choose what you do
wisely.Please do not be too critical of the WTS. Try and appreciate the immensity of
the task they have and the inherent responsibility. They are responsible for
the lives of millions while you are only responsible for the life of you and
your family. Give them a break. They are doing the best they can. If they
seen restrictive try to see why they would be so. When you make arbitrary
decisions that affect the future of your family don't you set parameters you
feel are valid? In time will you disagree with some of them and change them?
And truly some will not have been necessary but you would have thought they
were good ideas at the time. As you boy grows the restrictions will be
reduced or changed.The most important thing to strive for is doing what God wants us to do. We
do that by praying and studying God's word and associating with people who
are successfully walking with God. The world has many ideas but they have not
been successful nor can their path lead us to life or happiness. God can and
will.David had doubts and made mistakes. I had the Bible Highlights this week and
I focused on Psalms 36:1-9. David points out the steps that a person takes
when they turn away from Jehovah. In verses 5-9 he discusses the attributes
that God has that will cause us to stick to him or return to him if we have
strayed.If I have not really ticked you off, I hope not, I would like to hear from
you. If you would like to discuss any of this or have another view or other
questions you would like to discuss please sent me a note. If I can help I
would be glad to. As I said at the beginning I have felt much as you do but
have over time realized that the direction the WTS is providing is better
than I could conjure up or any I could get elsewhere. It took a long while
for me to realize that.Be careful while you settle any issues you have. If you turn from Jehovah you
may be shooting yourself in the foot. So be wise and consider your steps
closely. If the WTS is backed by God and you oppose it will God look with
favor on you and save you? Will he even help you make a wise choice? Are you
absolutely positive that the WTS is out to lunch or could you be mistaken?
This is a life or death issue and each day the time left is reduced. Can you
truly make a case that the WTS is not backed by God, that they are truly
misleading you or making you a slave? If you think you can make that case I
would be interested to see how you develop that conclusion. If you present it
I will try to poke holes in it. But hey, is there really anything wrong with
someone checking your experiment? Mixing the wrong chemicals could cause an
explosion.If you do not have anyone there to discus this with, talking it over with me
might be beneficial. I won't put you down for your views but I will be direct
and I will try to show that the teachings and directions of the WTS are being
backed by Jehovah. It can be hard to work through this. I have done it a
number of times myself and got stronger every time. I have read apostate
material, recognized it for what it is and refuted it. The only organization
that consistently had my interests at heart was the WTS. If you are not sure
and would like to discuss it I am here. I will take whatever time needed to
help you. But if you do not want to discuss it just send me a note and tell
me to stuff it.Hang in there. Life in this world is not easy but you can make it. You can
lead your family into a wonderful new world. Whatever road you take ask
Jehovah for direction and you will be successful.Christian love,
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MIRACLE CONDOMS! Awake issue
by philo inmiracle condoms!
(see free sample on back page of awake!
magazine).
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openminded
Philo, may I ask who's picture graces your name? Who ever it is, she is HOT AS HELL! -OM
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!!ONE MORE ELDER FACING WTS EXECUTION !
by exodus inwell, here it is, after almost 20 years 12 of those serving in position of responsibility it comes down to my spiritual execution(jw style).
allow me to explain.
for those who you who still remember me from h20 under the name truthexodus i came to post my experience as an elder of local congregation in nyc area.
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openminded
Thanks Waiting
Could you provide a link to the article(if you get time), Id like to bookmark it for future use. --Thanks In Advance
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!!ONE MORE ELDER FACING WTS EXECUTION !
by exodus inwell, here it is, after almost 20 years 12 of those serving in position of responsibility it comes down to my spiritual execution(jw style).
allow me to explain.
for those who you who still remember me from h20 under the name truthexodus i came to post my experience as an elder of local congregation in nyc area.
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openminded
Question:
What are you talking about with the "untrained volunteer" remark? Is this how the WT legal team refer to the elders? Is it in an official stament?
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got a lot of free time? check out this link.....
by peaceloveharmony inhey y'all,.
found a great site.
it's a huge data base with all sorts of public records for us, canada, even has some info on europe.
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openminded
Hey Peace
I really couldnt get much. Everthing seemed to require passwords.
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Awake september 8, 2001
by TheHighPriest inawake september 8, 2001 page 20-21. the bible's viewpoint.
did god condone the slave trade?.
the real question should be "did god condone slavery?".
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openminded
Thank You - for taking the time to post this!
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What Kind of Witness Were You ?
by Big Jim infor me that is a hard question to answer.
it seems like when your in the borg it is always pounded in your head that you need to do more so they made you think you were never doing enough.. the last five years that i was in it i guess you could say i was pretty gung-ho, i regulare pionered for almost three years as well as served as a ms, i used my home for book study as well as saturday field service.. but you know what all that does not amount to a hill of beans, you know why?
because the whole time i was a doubter, i never liked it from the time i was a kid.
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openminded
Jurs-Your pic is sorta fuzzy but as far as I can tell, YOUR A HOTTY!
Anyway, for some reason I was really popular as a witness. Always invited to go skiing, fishing, camping, and whatnot. I never really took the "truth" too seriously despite the fact, that I did a part on just about every meeting, everything from reading the watchtower to conducting the bookstudy to filling in on a lot of parts on the ministry school. Since I was "raised in it" I never questioned it much till I realized my friends from high school were becoming doctors and lawyers and I despite being as smart as them, was working as a laborer. So I started looking into things, enrolled in college and never really looked back. Since I quit going to meeting(I am not dad or dfd) I have 2 semesters till I get a degree in business, started a business of my own, got promoted at work, bought a house, and still have time to work out every day.
The only problem is that my 5 yr old son(who I have in organized soccer,hockey, and t-ball) is about as interested in meetings as he is going to the dentist. So every Thurs. night and Sun morn, my wife gets in a big huff cause I wont force him to cooperate with her. She says I am not supporting her in providing him with his "spititual needs". I have never ever said he cant go along with her or opposed anything ever. I just make other activities available too him and never threaten him like she does. You should hear her yell at him every thurs-"OK FINE next time you ask to go to Chukee Cheese it gonna be NO WAY cause YOU wont do what I ask of you." She really makes him feel guilty like he is hurting her feelings or something. It really sucks.