Posts by ozziepost

9

Don't they need the Holy Spirit?

by ozziepost in

jw
friends

you may always have believed that the preaching work was directed by jesus, who in his parting words to his disciples said: .

"all authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.

go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the father and of the son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things i have commanded you.

ozziepost

You may always have believed that the preaching work was directed by Jesus, who in his parting words to his disciples said:

"All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things." (Matthew 28: 18-20)

You may also remember that Jesus said:

" But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach you all things and bring back to your minds all the things I told you." (John 14:26)

Strange, then, to read this statement in the April 2001 Kingdom Ministry (back page):

"Our love is the force behind the worldwide preaching work."

On so many occasions, even subtly, the Writing Department are obscuring the role of Jesus in the congregations. The Holy Spirit does not get a look-in except as with "the spirit-directed organsiation".
Ozzie (member of the truth in advertising class)

5

Questions for this weeks service meeting

by NikL in

jw
friends

in the true spirit of sharing all the bountifull truths that exist within gods organisation (note the sarcasm) i am forwarding the following questions i have obtained for use at this weeks service meeting.... building appreciation for the bible -mankind's oldest modern book.

the following questions highlight points you may have observed when watching this video: .

(1) what facts distinguish the bible as being unequaled?.

ozziepost

Oh brother Third Son,

Mary Jones is responsible, if indirectly, for the Bible being distributed for the "common man".

If you cannot find more, I'll try and post later.

Ozzie (who believes Jehovah is not gender biased)

26

Elders- "Trained or UnTrained- WHICH IS IT??

by JT in

jw
friends

the biggest error wt has continued to make for the last 120yrs is they leave a wonderful paper trail behind - where a serious student of study will have no problem following and seeing that so many of their lofty claims simply don't fly .

case in point - are the elders trained or untrained clergymen as it were?.

well for those of you who have never served as an elder allow me to share with you what elders are told about their training.

ozziepost

Agree with that, JT. I came to this conclusion after 3+ decades as an elder. In recent times I have spoken with clergy and theologians about their faith and understanding of what it means to be Christian. I have found them kindly, humble and above all devout. In fact, quite the opposite of what I had been led to believe by the WTs and which I spoke of from the KH platform. Their knowledge of the Bible I have found to be most impressive, putting my peers and I into the shade. To think that I used to encourage my group in field service by saying that we (they) had so much more knowledge than any who went to church! I now see that that is **********!

Thinkers wife: exactly! The average elder is an unschooled tradesman. Nothing wrong with that, but the WTS makes a virtue of their ignorance "unschooled and ordinary". The result time after time is a mess making their enforced intervention more harmful than helpful. In many cases they are downright dangerous. Couples are split, families are split etc And everyone is too scared to do what they think is right for fear of retribution from the elders. Families can't react in a "normal" way in a crisis. They can't take it to Jehovah in prayer and act on it with the operation of the Holy Spirit in their lives, because they have to do whatever the elders decide (advise). Even if the elders are doing it with a good heart they still make a mess. This crazy world is now being exposed but how many (or few) will be saved from it? I just hope my grandchildren don't have to suffer for our misled zeal.

Ozzie (of the unfortunate untrained class)

75

Who's to blame?

by ozziepost in

jw
friends

when viv mouritz , former branch coordinator in australia, addressed the special meeting of sydney and surrounding area congregations at the superdome last weekend, he blamed the young witnesses who were leaving "the truth" for the drop in numbers in australia.. at the service meeting this week in one sydney congregation it was announced by a bethel elder that the elders have been told (as if they didn't know already!

) that 2,000 have left "the truth" in the past two years in australia.

this typical congregation of 120 publishers has lost 19 inactive since 1999.. the march 2001 issue of kingdom ministry (australian edition) gives the number of publishers for december as 58,426, pioneers 3,315 and 19 baptized.. in dec '98 there were 58,706 pubs,and in dec '99 there were 58,000.. with 1,600-1,800 being baptized each year, there is indeeed a 2,000 shortfall.. so, who's to blame?

ozziepost

Now listen wife,

You spelt bastard incorrectly.

Actually we prefer to call our mates a bugger. Sorry poms.

Ozzie

21

Are these men appointed by holy spirit?

by zev in

jw
friends

one of the things that has bothered me for years, in this organization is how appointments are made.

its alleged to be done by holy spirit.

or by men whose decisions are effected or influenced by holy spirit.

ozziepost

Philo,

Thanks for your post.

Some of our brothers and friends here may not appreciate that often elders serving on judicial committees find it hard to reach a satisfactory decision. By satisfactory, I mean that the appropriate decison on guilt, repentance etc is not clear. The elders are instructed not to be hasty in reaching a decision (see ks91) but in practice they feel great pressure to reach a speedy conclusion to the matter at hand.

The pressure comes from different quarters; the body of elders, the circuit overseer, and the accused. Often the judicial committee find a certain amount of "compassion" to reach a speedy conclusion.

My point here is that I have often heard elders express that since they knew there could be an appeal agianst their decision, then it didn't matter so much whether their decision is correct or not, so long as they reach a decision.

In all of this, you rightly question the operation of holy spirit. In fact, Holy Spirit seems to be absent from the judicial process. Instead we have a judicial process that is very loosely modelled on the adversarial legal process of "the world". Except that of course the elders are the prosecutors and the judges. Most unsatisfactory.

Cheers,
Ozzie

75

Who's to blame?

by ozziepost in

jw
friends

when viv mouritz , former branch coordinator in australia, addressed the special meeting of sydney and surrounding area congregations at the superdome last weekend, he blamed the young witnesses who were leaving "the truth" for the drop in numbers in australia.. at the service meeting this week in one sydney congregation it was announced by a bethel elder that the elders have been told (as if they didn't know already!

) that 2,000 have left "the truth" in the past two years in australia.

this typical congregation of 120 publishers has lost 19 inactive since 1999.. the march 2001 issue of kingdom ministry (australian edition) gives the number of publishers for december as 58,426, pioneers 3,315 and 19 baptized.. in dec '98 there were 58,706 pubs,and in dec '99 there were 58,000.. with 1,600-1,800 being baptized each year, there is indeeed a 2,000 shortfall.. so, who's to blame?

ozziepost

Have just heard that in one capital city congregation of 120 publishers presently, they had 19 become inactive in the past 18 months. This was announced to the congregation apparently. One cannot imagine that this was made up of young ones. So anecdotally you must assume that its older ones too who are leaving.

Ozzie (remembering how many do not like reporting)

21

Are these men appointed by holy spirit?

by zev in

jw
friends

one of the things that has bothered me for years, in this organization is how appointments are made.

its alleged to be done by holy spirit.

or by men whose decisions are effected or influenced by holy spirit.

ozziepost

Zev,

Today's Watchtower Study "Overseers and Ministerial Servants Theocratically Appointed" (Jan 15 issue p12) follows the same line of reasoning as the 1985 QFR.

It states in the section "Appointed by Holy Spirit" paragraphs 9 to 15
that the appointments are made by H.S. because:
1) The requirements were inspired by H.S.
2) When the elders meet to make recommendations of appointments they pray for H.S. to guide them.

My opinion is that they claim too much for themselves and so leave themselves wide open to attack as you are now able to do.

Another thing that this article does is to attack Christendom's clergy (what's new?) and, in effect, say that our elders are better than yours because they are appointed by H.S. Many Witnesses would take it as truth whenevr they read these attacks in the magazine. In truth, however, if they were to check for themselves, they would discover that the appointment of ministers in many churches is not much different from what the Witnesses have, and in many cases, seems to be closer to the first century model i.e. the congregation selected and this was confirmed by the travelling apostles. Note it does not say that the elders recommended. See for example, 1 Cor 16:3.

The previous sub-heading in the study article reads: "Theocratic-Not Democratic-Appointment". Again this is misleading. It paints a picture of the churches appointing their ministers by a democratic process. This is easy to gloss over in the metting, but stop and think: Which churches appoint their ministers by a democratic process? Are there many? What of the others then? Is it possible that they too can claim a theocratic process of appointing ministers?

Paragraph 6 reads : "Simply stated, a true theocracy is rule by God."
That is simply stated, isn't it? As TR and Simon have intimated, what is the link between Jehovah and those making the appointments, if by H.S.?

Another aspect to this is quite sinister. These guys so appointed actually believe that they were appointed by H.S. A bit like the divine right of kings. A poor result is the hardhearted attitude displayed by many of the elder class.

If you go to next week's Watchtower Study you will be able to hear the "heartwarming" study article "Keep In Step With Jehovah's Organisation". [8>]

Cheers,
Ozzie (grateful to be shepherded by Christlike servants)

P.S. one of the review question to this week's article says : "How is the Governing Body involved in the appontment of overseers and ministerial servants?" Look for the answer, it'll slay yer.

75

Who's to blame?

by ozziepost in

jw
friends

when viv mouritz , former branch coordinator in australia, addressed the special meeting of sydney and surrounding area congregations at the superdome last weekend, he blamed the young witnesses who were leaving "the truth" for the drop in numbers in australia.. at the service meeting this week in one sydney congregation it was announced by a bethel elder that the elders have been told (as if they didn't know already!

) that 2,000 have left "the truth" in the past two years in australia.

this typical congregation of 120 publishers has lost 19 inactive since 1999.. the march 2001 issue of kingdom ministry (australian edition) gives the number of publishers for december as 58,426, pioneers 3,315 and 19 baptized.. in dec '98 there were 58,706 pubs,and in dec '99 there were 58,000.. with 1,600-1,800 being baptized each year, there is indeeed a 2,000 shortfall.. so, who's to blame?

ozziepost

OK you guys and dolls, back to the question "Who's to Blame?"

As you look back over 4 pages of posts, a common theme emerges.

I particularly liked the point about the parents. If the parents of young ones are still at the meetings, are they there in body but not in spirit? Good one. Thanks Danny Bear (koala in disguise?) but what's this about me being Bossy Ozzie? Fair dinkum mate, you've come the raw prawn with me on that one!

Ozzie (known to his friends as timid and shy)

75

Who's to blame?

by ozziepost in

jw
friends

when viv mouritz , former branch coordinator in australia, addressed the special meeting of sydney and surrounding area congregations at the superdome last weekend, he blamed the young witnesses who were leaving "the truth" for the drop in numbers in australia.. at the service meeting this week in one sydney congregation it was announced by a bethel elder that the elders have been told (as if they didn't know already!

) that 2,000 have left "the truth" in the past two years in australia.

this typical congregation of 120 publishers has lost 19 inactive since 1999.. the march 2001 issue of kingdom ministry (australian edition) gives the number of publishers for december as 58,426, pioneers 3,315 and 19 baptized.. in dec '98 there were 58,706 pubs,and in dec '99 there were 58,000.. with 1,600-1,800 being baptized each year, there is indeeed a 2,000 shortfall.. so, who's to blame?

ozziepost

say tiffly bear...... koala bear......candy bear......db

why aren't you out Sat morning?

Ozzie (me neither)

75

Who's to blame?

by ozziepost in

jw
friends

when viv mouritz , former branch coordinator in australia, addressed the special meeting of sydney and surrounding area congregations at the superdome last weekend, he blamed the young witnesses who were leaving "the truth" for the drop in numbers in australia.. at the service meeting this week in one sydney congregation it was announced by a bethel elder that the elders have been told (as if they didn't know already!

) that 2,000 have left "the truth" in the past two years in australia.

this typical congregation of 120 publishers has lost 19 inactive since 1999.. the march 2001 issue of kingdom ministry (australian edition) gives the number of publishers for december as 58,426, pioneers 3,315 and 19 baptized.. in dec '98 there were 58,706 pubs,and in dec '99 there were 58,000.. with 1,600-1,800 being baptized each year, there is indeeed a 2,000 shortfall.. so, who's to blame?

ozziepost

How'd that happen?

Must be different translations!

Ozzie [8>]