can someone please tell me why pro-witness posters frequently tell other posters that they are lying?
xandit has just done it to focus -who`s post was well researched and informative - friday on h20 does it for a pastime, as do most of the pro witness brigade.. i have to say that, in my experience, people who shout "liar!
" have usually turned out to be persons who`s own truthfullness can often be called into question.. calling someone a liar is, in my book, a dire insult, and will result in a challenge to pistols at dawn if that particular form of abuse is ever pointed in my direction!.
Well said, Pommie (aka Englishman),
Wouldn't it seem that JW supporters who resort to insults to try to win the argument, are contradicting what their God commands? And not much evidence of Christian love with meekness and humility.
"He that is looking for good will keep seeking goodwill; but as for the one searching for bad, it will come upon him" (Proverbs 11:27)
"So really now, who will make me out a liar, Or reduce my word to nothing?" (Job 24:25)
Cheers,
Ozzie
i'm sure that this one will puzzle you!.
*** sl 208 12 christendom and judaism now facing desolation ***(1975).
8 it is the fake kingdom of the heavens, the counterfeit, namely, .
G'day Mac,
Yes, it is a puzzle, but many years ago, the Brooklyn writers spotted their contradiction and so a Question Box appeared on page 4 of the November 1975 issue of Kingdom Ministry.
"The Man’s Salvation book (page 208, paragraph 8) and the October 1, 1975, Watchtower present different explanations as to who is represented by the “man” that planted the mustard grain. (Matt. 13:31, 32) Which is correct?
In the October 1, 1975, Watchtower, page 600, paragraph 22, we read: “Jesus Christ, with his prophetic foresight, could foreknow the outcome for the symbolic mustard grain that he planted in the first century.” So Jesus is to be considered as the planter referred to in this parable. An adjustment is being made in the printing of all future copies of the Man’s Salvation book to read in harmony with this viewpoint.
The reasoning followed by The Watchtower is consistent with what is found at Isaiah 5:2 and Jeremiah 2:21. There, Jehovah God’s experience with Israel was that he had planted Israel as a “choice red vine,” but Israel turned out to be a nation of “wild grapes” or, as Jeremiah says, a ‘degenerate, foreign vine.’ The parable, then, would indicate that Jesus foresaw a parallel experience between what happened to Israel and that in connection with the “kingdom of the heavens” referred to in the illustration. Hence, The Watchtower presents the corrected understanding that Jesus indeed is the planter of the mustard grain in the first century."
So there we have it, they got it wrong, they admitted it, but only those receiving Kingdom Ministry were ever told!
But wait a moment. Do you notice that in the Question Box, they say:
"An adjustment is being made in the printing of all future copies of the Man’s Salvation book to read in harmony with this viewpoint." ?
Well, guess what? You've got it, it wasn't done! The current (1999) issue of Watchtower Library CD-ROM shows paragraph 8 as reading:
"8 It is the fake “kingdom of the heavens,” the counterfeit, namely, Christendom, that is filled with these symbolic birds, “the sons of the wicked one.” Today it is big enough to hold them all. In the parable, the “man” that sowed the mustard grain pictures the “wicked one,” Satan the Devil."
So anyone using Watchtower Library is still likely to be confused!
Yet it is not a confusing point. Jesus was showing that although the kingdom will seem to have an insignificant beginning, it will eventually spread throughout the world. "The tree with its branches may well be an allusion to Daniel 4:21 suggesting that the kingdom of heaven will expand to world dominion and people from all nations will find rest in it."(NIV Study Bible, footnote Matt 13:32)
Ozzie (of the logical class)
cities in crisis - awake 8 2001.
'the growing number of street children is heartrending evidence of the deep poverty that exists in the cities of the developing world.
according to some estimates, there are as many as 30 million street children worldwide!
Say Thurdson, have we got the same birthday? We were born in this place on the same day! We're soul (cell) mates!
After all this time the geriatric GB is presiding over bureaucrats who appraently have no feeling for the non-white Third Worlders. Not surprising, really, since they have failed to grasp what a state they're in (born in sin, needing the ransom of our Lord for forgiveness)
Cheers,
Ozzie
cities in crisis - awake 8 2001.
'the growing number of street children is heartrending evidence of the deep poverty that exists in the cities of the developing world.
according to some estimates, there are as many as 30 million street children worldwide!
G'day ISP,
Yes, I found some of the magazines focus a little weird.
Front cover: If you wanted to show Cities in Crisis why illustrate it with a seemingly affluent guy trying to cross a busy USA street, trying to dodge the Yellow Cabs? What about illustrating it with urban slums such as in Nairobi where millions live in the most horrific circumstances, and even Christian women are forces into prostitution to feed their sick and dying children after they've been abandoned by their husbands? Wouldn't that be more apropos, or is it simply unfashionable?
What Future for Cities?: We see 3 beautiful cityscapes including Sydney in the magical land of Oz. Is this meant to show that we will have beautiful cities in the new system? That would be a vhange in understanding, wouldn't it?
Illustration on page 10: The usual picture. Happy faces, a deer on a crag, waterfalls, but no roads! Why does that guy need a wheelbarrow load of food? Couldn't he just pick it when he needed it? He's not being greedy, surely!
Ozzie
do you find normal that:.
it is interesting to point out that nearly a year after ceasing its policy of .
disfellowshipping jehovahs witnesses who accept blood or the blood.
G'day lurk,
You're so right. you could add to this "simplification = tax avoidance"
How often we've heard the term simplification in recent years. We had the simplification of food service which meant do away with it. Why? To avoid paying tax on the income from food served at conventions.
We had the simplification of offering literature free but asking for a donation. Why? To avoid sales tax, or in the case in Oz, to avoid the newly introduced GST (which is VAT elsewhere)
Can you think of any more?
As you rightly point out, it's hypocrisy, but I've never been able to understand what is wrong with paying tax? The borg have always pointed out the scriptural correctness of paying our taxes, yet they try their best to avoid it. If we had to pay tax on lterature sales, so what? The churches do, yet I see that the litearture available in Christian book shops is available at reasonable prices. Bibles are available at reasonable prices, some are as cheap as the previous NWT prices. I have personally seen churches offering Bibles freely to anyone who wanted to read it. So what's the big hassle in paying tax?
Ozzie
do you find normal that:.
it is interesting to point out that nearly a year after ceasing its policy of .
disfellowshipping jehovahs witnesses who accept blood or the blood.
G'day unanswered,
There was a change of policy around the middle of last year with respect to the treatment of pubs who take blood transfusions.
For example, a USA letter addressed "TO ALL HOSPITAL LIAISON COMMITTEES" dated June 16 said: "If a baptized member of the faith willfully and without regret accepts a blood transfusion, he indicates by his own action that he no longer wishes to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses. The individual is no longer viewed as a member of the Christian congregation...." This letter was in response to an article in the June 14, 2000 issue of the Times of London that stated that JWs have changed their position on blood transfusions. The Society letter was denying it, but playing with words. DF = DA in this context.
Cheers,
Ozzie
do you find normal that:.
it is interesting to point out that nearly a year after ceasing its policy of .
disfellowshipping jehovahs witnesses who accept blood or the blood.
Mac,
It may be that not much is publicised to the R&F because DF/DA are essentially the same.
The elders' manual on page 103 reads:
Disfellowshipped and disassociated ones are shunned by those who wish to have a good relationship with Jehovah." (i.e. Jah=org.)
There is also the Bulgaria connection. This has been well documented on various sites/db but simply stated the Soc gave an undertaking in the European Human Rights Commission to take no action against individual members who take blood transfusions.
They're playing with words in their trickery and deceipt.
Ozzie
this was almost ...60 years ago!.
***w. 15.09.1941 page 288 .
receiving the gift , the marching children.
G'day Mac,
I guess many of those kids would be dead by now. Still, it is the remaining months before Armageddon; they just don't say how many!!
Those kids were told not to have children because of the shortness of time remaining; how wicked was that!
The more we read of our org's history, the sicker we feel.
Ozzie (who remembers that our Lord promised to be with us to the end; glad he's here, I'd go made otherwise)
during a debate with a relative of mine who is an elder, i told him i had a copy of the elders manual (via the net)..the look on his face was a pictue to behold!!!
his wife could not believe that an ex-dub could possibly be in possesion of the oh so powerfull elders little book of tricks.he told me that the book was for authority and only elders have that authority to have access to the information in the book, is he on a big ego trip or is he just stupid not knowing this book is available to all on the net?
is,nt it common knowledge amongst elders?
G'day GTBFR3, (boy, that's difficult, mate!)
That must have been some debate. The horror that he felt at the thought of you having access to this secret elders' business comes from how the org have impressed the secrecy of the big green book on the elders. Did you know that if a brother ceases to be an elder he must hand in his book (notes and all!) to the Sec. Of course, if he is ever re-appointed, he gets his book back.
The book itself is not easy to follow, from an elders' point of view. When conducting a judicial 'case' you find you have to have markers (Post-It notes are good) in the relevant pages so's you can follow the procedure.
Most of the book is not secret at all, but contains points that are freely available in the publications. One exception may be the treatment of disfellowshipped relatives. The book states on page 103:
"Normally, a close relative WOULD NOT BE DISFELLOWSHIPPED [Emphasis added] for associating with a disfellowshipped person unless there is spiritual association or an effort made to justify or excuse the wrongful course."
Many JWs would not be aware of that. The elders may have modified that by saying something like "You can't associate with any DF relative who lives outside the family home."
Instructions of threats and bullying run throughout the book.
Ozzie (who doesn't need a book of laws to tell him of God's forgiveness)
i found some interesting statistics, some of which you may know, that indicate that the wtbts is in decline.. 1. in the twenty years from 1970 to 1990, the rate of yearly increase dropped from 10% to 6%.
in the last 10 years it has dropped from 6% to about 2%.
since the world population growth is about 1.5% they are only growing at about 1/2 of 1% faster than the population.. 2. in 1999, there were 21 large countries that showed a decline.
G'day all and thanks for a most interesting thread.
It seems to me that some cautionary comments need to be considered.
larc: Yes, it's true that the rate of increase is declining, but nonetheless there is still increase. In most orgs a similar pattern of growth emerges over time i.e. there is an initial spurt in its infancy, then a levelling off as it matures. But the increase in total numbers in the recent past is still much greater in numerical terms than in years gone by. I agree that the "quality" i.e. hours per pub and R/V, studies has declined per capita. This bodes ill for the future, as has already been seen in Japan where the latest decline in pubs followed years of declining baptisms.
Path: Don't get too excited about France. All Christian churches/groups i.e. non-Catholic are being persecuted there.
Now to expose my own thoughts!
It seems to me that there are several factors involved in the decline.
You might have had doubts over the years that you have put to the back of your mind, but then something happens, that I call a 'catalyst' that causes you to stop and think. That's when you turn to the internet/Franz's books. Once you have been there, it's not possible to continue in the same blind obedience in the spiritual paradise. What is it that acts as a catalyst? Usually some harsh actions of the elders. Time and time again as we read testimonies here and on other boards, it's the actions of elders that causes people hurt and discouragement which then makes for receptiveness to having their eyes of understanding opened to the real state of the 'truth'.
And so here we are. Welcome from me too in the magical land of Oz to all the newbies. As Martini says: Hang on....It's going to be a long ride folks. Well put!
Ozzie (of the lighter side posting class)
