Posts by patio34

4

Abortion compared to killing kids at Armageddon

by expatbrit in

jw
friends

as a jw, i was always disturbed by the inconsistency in the society's position on abortion / kids dying at armageddon.. the wt opposes abortion, calling it murder.

yet if a child is just one day old when armageddon comes, it will perish with it's parents, since the parents bear responsibility for their children.

so goes the wt line.. i could never reconcile these two viewpoints.

patio34

Yes, Expatbrit, I never believed that WT doctrine. Years ago, I wrote the WTBS about it, using the rationale that Eze. 18 argues against it in that there is the arguement the son should not die for the sin of his father. And, imo, that gave the lie to children dying at Armageddon for the selfsame reason Eze. argued against.

The reply was 'it would be very unwise to state either way.' But, I don't think that is the way the WTs are written. Where did all the JWs get the idea that they would? Has to be the WT.

In a way it's far worse than a very early abortion, because it would be a fully formed, sentient being, instead of the VERY early fetus. NOT THAT I AM PRO-ABORTION, just saying killing a baby or toddler, etc., is even worse.

Pat

272

McVeigh vs Death Penalty

by Amazing in

jw
friends

i am a policitcal conservative, at least a fiscal conservative and sociel moderate.

i support the death penalty, but i agree that our judicial system needs to overhaul how wwe treat criminals to achieve better rehabilitation results.

and of course, withhold the death penalty in cases where there could be doubt.. in mcveigh's case, i believe that he deserves the death penalty.

patio34

Another quick thought. How is killing someone because they killed someone different than hitting a child because they hit someone. In these sorts of things you don't fight fire with fire.

Even comparing executions to the bible executions doesn't work because the Hebrews executed adulterers, thieves, stubborn rebellious CHILDREN, ad nauseum.

Certainly, no one is clamoring for a return to such barbarism today in all those other cases. No, the Bible is not a good standard in that instance.

Pat

272

McVeigh vs Death Penalty

by Amazing in

jw
friends

i am a policitcal conservative, at least a fiscal conservative and sociel moderate.

i support the death penalty, but i agree that our judicial system needs to overhaul how wwe treat criminals to achieve better rehabilitation results.

and of course, withhold the death penalty in cases where there could be doubt.. in mcveigh's case, i believe that he deserves the death penalty.

patio34

My opinion is to agree with most of you. You see, the problem I have is the inability to form an original opinion of my own--after having been a jw for 28 years (only 3 months out).

Amazing has said a lot about justice, but who defines what justice is? That is a non-answer because it seems ill-defined and is given as a definitive answer.

Probably I don't think anyone has the right to take human life. However, I do think a nation has the right and duty to defend itself against agressors.

But what is the harm in imprisoning a felon for their entire life if necessary? Amazing, your point about prisons being so cruel seems, again, not well founded. Then, if taken to its logical conclusion, do you feel NO ONE should be imprisoned? Not likely.

It does seem to me to be revenge, not justice (vague and subject to current laws) that is the motive for executions. This country certainly has the wherewithal to life imprisonment.

Well, it seems I have formulated an original opinion outside the WTS after all. No, executions are not justice, they are anachronistic and cruel.

However, to reiterate, a nation does have the right to defend itself in war, and that includes taking of life.

Pat

10

live longer

by teejay in

jw
friends

http://www.apa.org/releases/religion.html .

analysis of studies shows that religious.

involvement may be a factor in living a long life .

patio34

Tina,

Outstanding analysis!

Pat

16

Do u believe in God??

by JW72 in

jw
friends

hi everyone, i don't know if i believe in god or not.. can someone give me a really convincing reason why to believe in him or not.. or is it just down to faith???.

faith in god is a bit like playing the lottery.. you have to sacrifice 1 a week, but you might just win.

you may as well, it's not much of a sacrifice, infact it helps people (lottery money helps projects/investments), but the prize is well worth winning.. anyone like my anallergy (is that how you spell it?).

patio34

JW72,

If someone were to tell me a fantastic invisible person (or fairies in my backyard) existed, the burden of proof is on that person. It is not up to the one who won't believe it without proof to disprove it.

The term atheist simply means one without a belief in God. Many reasonable persons won't believe in something that fantastic without proof.

Thomas Paine said in his book 'Age of Reason' that if the disciple, Thomas, had to put his hand in the side of the Lord for proof, then all of us should have the same opportunity. Thomas would not believe without proof, so everyone should have the same opportunity.

However, if someone could come up with videos, etc. of fairies in the backyard, they could believe in them.

Java was correct, IMO, about not taking it too seriously and becoming all the negative things religion seems to bring out in people.

Pat

"All religions die of the same disease and that is being found out."

"What is there about humans who look into the vast void of space and address it 'Thou'?"

46

What Caused Your First Doubt ?

by Big Jim in

jw
friends

for me it was when i was about twelve years old and my best friends dad was disfellowshipped from the congregation.. i could not understand how a god of love would treat someone so coldly.. i used to think what if that was the way my parents would treat me if i had done something wrong, that would be so hard and cruel.. as i got older another thing that bothered me was the beard issue.

it may sound pretty trivial however the society has always refused to make a good arguement as to why they would give you the old cold shoulder if you were to grow one.. two more items; first i could not understand why all the congregations and all the assemblys would give income reports.

and the society never did.

patio34

I had doubts for years but as Mulan said, put them on a shelf 'waiting on Jehovah' and staying busy in the works of the Lord.

Then, one day about 4 months ago, I made up a list of what being a JW has cost me and my family. It was very lengthy and negative. I felt so guilty I threw it away.

Then about 3 months ago, my grandchildren were watching the movie 'Dinasour.' I was struck by an old doubt full force: how do the dinasours fit into the Bible? For several reasons, to me at least, the existence of these carnivores disprove the Bible as a literal book.

So, from that day I decided to quit meeting attendance and research evolution and so-called 'bible criticism.' I also called my sister, 'Waiting,' who then kindly sent me a bunch of books, etc. She had quit meetings (unbeknownst to me) a year before.

Pat

25

Who Was Cain Afraid of?

by patio34 in

when god banished cain, why was he in fear of his life when there was only he and his family on the earth?

after all, how many could there have been and is it logical to think they were everywhere else--anywhere else but where cain and his family lived?

so, who was he afraid of that would take his life?.

patio34

Pomegranate and A Christian,
Very erudite posts!

Six,
I'm more in your ball park as far as belief about the Bible!

Pat

22

JUSTICE #2 - Making Mole Hills into Mountains

by Amazing in

jw
friends

making mole hills into mountains .

we had a wonderful and most exemplary family in our congregation.

they are hard workers, hospitable, caring, generous, suffer with you through hardship, kind, compassionate, and as loyal to the organization as any family could be.

patio34

Amazing,

Thanks for sharing that account with us. I'm sure it's painful for you.

In reading Ray Franz's In Search of Christian Freedom, this is the quintessential form of legalism that the Pharisees exhibited. It is the fault of the WTBS organization and its multitude of Talmudic rules that causes this sort of thing to happen.

Pat

25

Who Was Cain Afraid of?

by patio34 in

when god banished cain, why was he in fear of his life when there was only he and his family on the earth?

after all, how many could there have been and is it logical to think they were everywhere else--anywhere else but where cain and his family lived?

so, who was he afraid of that would take his life?.

patio34

Oy vey!!! I concede! I don't agree, but I concede, Bobsy, Francoise, and Pomegranate.

I tend to view the Bible as mythical. Btw, the Sumerians are the first known writers, way before any other peoples, so where they got their stories from, who knows.

But the rest would fall under the creationist vs. evolutionist debate. I am not knowledgeable enough about evolution. However, it does seem certain to me that mankind is far, far older than the Bible allows. Also animals.

BUT, my new motto is 'live and let live.' I now concede who Cain might have been fearful of.

Thanks!

Pat

15

Children should feel free to.....

by biblexaminer in

jw
friends

i have one question to ask my local jw's, be they on the body, or be they higher up in the heirarchy.. it is this... .

watchtower literature tells me over and over again, that as a parent, i have to make my children feel that they can "freely speak" about whatever is troubling them.

the question is, at what age i should make them stop feeling this way, and help them to see the need to shut up, sit down, and quit rocking the boat.

patio34

Bible Examiner,

What an interesting idea!! Kids learn to be just like us: keep your doubts to yourself if you want to get along. There's no other way to be a JW. You can't disagree without being condemned as an 'apostate.' So, how hypocritical to say 'open up.' There comes an age they have to shutup, just as we do.

Pat