patio34

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Posts by patio34

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  10

  THAT DOES IT! I'M STAYING!!!

  by Nathan Natas in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  oh, you can try your little cooing sentiments, you can send me more gifts, praise me and all that.. but i'm not leaving!

  don't say i didn't warn you!

  it's too late now!.

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  patio34

  LOL!

  Venice, welcome back!! I've missed your posts!

  Pat
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  19

  where are all the demon possessed people?

  by sleepy in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  how come that when jesus was on earth there were so many demon possessd people .. imagine how scared people must have been, creeping down the street wondering whether the next person you met was crased by demons and was going to attack you.. so how did they work out that someone was possessed by demons, who told them?how did they know it wasnt just a disease or other afliction?.

  and were are all those demon possessions today ?.

  you would think that with all the comunication technology today that at least one example of a positivly demon possessed person could be presented to the midia somewere in the world.. or perhaps we cant tell if someone is possessed or not because there are no extra outwould signs and any disease they caused would show up like a normal disease in tests.. maybe we are all possessed and dont know it.

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  patio34

  Hi Sleepy,

  Good question. Here's another one: where were all the demon-possessed people before the NT was written? Is there one case of it in the entire Old Testament? I don't think so.

  My unresearched, but thought out, suspicion is that it was borrowed from the Persians and other religions, along with baptisms (not in the OT).

  When I was a faithful dub and reading the Bible straight thru every year, I noticed that going from the "Hebrew" to the Greek scriptures, it was like a whole new religion: baptisms, demon-possessions and exorcisms everywhere, etc.

  Pat
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  93

  "Mire of atheism..."

  by Julie in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  :i welcome those of your quality of character and refusal to sink into the mire of atheism or deep cynicism, .

  i found these words to be so interesting.

  i have seen posts (albeit few) that discuss the bible and whether or not it is of god.

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  patio34

  Utopian Reformist and Bboy,

  Re evolution, primates, humans and in-betweens. According to my very limited understanding of this is that the most dominant humans either out-competed the Cro-Magnums et al or outright killed them. There are skeletons and fossils of these humans.

  As to there being no 'intermediates' between apes and men, as Bboy posits, there is only some 1% difference. And evolution works not as a tree, but as a branching bush. Once a creature diverges, either by geographical barriers or famine, etc., there are no intermediates. They go onto 'speciation,' a new form of the creature and eventually can no longer interbreed with the ancestor's direct descendants.

  There was a case of this with elephants recently in the news. Two species have developed and can no longer interbreed. But from the DNA they can tell that they used to be the same species. If I got that all right.

  I used to criticize evolution also when I was in the Borg, but I had never read one book about it, except from the WTBS' perspective (biased). But once I branched out and read a few reputable books by scientists, i understood how limited I was in knowledge to be criticizing something I didn't understand.

  Pat
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  27

  Looking for definitive answers . . .HELP

  by patio34 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  one comment i hear from my jw son a lot is that "the organization (capital o!

  ) is made up of imperfect men, so they make mistakes.

  " what are some answers to that?

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  patio34

  Hi Waiting,

  You must have been posting at the same time I was. Did you have a good lunch? It's so weird being on the other side of the fence now, huh?

  Okay, JT--I JUST LOVE THIS NET THANG! Ha-ha! And what JWs usually do--myself in the olden days--is back off when you suspect someone knows of whence they speak. Or conclude they're apostate.

  Propolog, good luck in defending your stance.

  Thanks all,

  Waiting, I'll leave my phone plugged in, but will be screening my calls. So talk a bit into my answering machine, okay, to give me time.

  TTFN,
  Pat
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  17

  Revelation- Inspired or......A case of bad Chicken

  by noidea in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the book of revelation is unlike any other book in the bible.

  so many visions leaving many to wonder what do they mean?

  supposedly, it holds the key to the future of mankind.. john had been through so many trials and tribulations.

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  patio34

  Hi NoIdea,

  I enjoy this topic. Here are some thoughts from the book "Deceptions and Myths of the Bible" by Lloyd Graham regarding Revelation.

  Much of the Bible is borrowed, the author claims, from other religions.

  E.g., Rev. 12 about the dragon waiting for the child to be born and the child saved, the woman fled to wilderness. Then being cast down. "There is nothing new in this story, rather myth. Cronus sought to destroy Jupiter, but the "holy" child was saved by being wrapped up in rags, matter, and cared for by Amalthea in the hills, wilderness.

  "According to another myth, Dione, the mother of Apollo, when purused by Python, fled into the wilderness.

  "In still another, Eurydic was chased into the woods by Aristaeus, god of herdsmen, and there killed by the sting of the serpent, matter.

  "In Eyypt it was Isis fleeing with her "divine son" Horus, when pursued by Typhon.

  And let us not forget Mary fleeing with her "diving son into Egypt when threatened by Herod.

  In Rev. 12:10 about the accuser of our bretheren cast down: Among the Romans, Lucifer rebelled and was cas down to the bottomless pit called Orcus, earth. The Titans of Greece made war up Zeus and were hurled down to Tartarus, a place lower than Hades the sun, hence also the earth.

  In India, Maha-sura envied Brahma his glory, led a legion of rebellious sprits vs. him, but Siva cast them down into Honderah, the place of darkness. In persia, Tiamat, the adversary fought with Sosiosh, the Creator, who, overcoming her, formed the earth from her body.

  In Rev. 11:17 it speaks of O Lord God, which art and wast, and art to come. Again, the beast that was, and is not, and yet to come (8th). The idea is by no means peculiar to Hebrew scripture. In the Bhagavad-Gita, Vishnu says of himself "I am the beginning and the middle and also the end of existing things." and Horus of Egypt said: "I am yesterday, today, and tomorrow."

  And he goes on and on. The point is that almost all of the Bible was borrowed from surrounding peoples and edited, embellished.

  The book, and others, point out countless examples of similar plagerisms. One of the biggest is Jesus Christ and the borrowings from Persians and Mithraists.

  But, I guess I've made my point. John was just fancifying all the religious myths he'd heard his whole life. Maybe even going senile?

  Pat
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  27

  Looking for definitive answers . . .HELP

  by patio34 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  one comment i hear from my jw son a lot is that "the organization (capital o!

  ) is made up of imperfect men, so they make mistakes.

  " what are some answers to that?

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  patio34

  Hi all,

  This is a good start to a book "Reasoning with the JWs." Great answers--am printing them out and will remember them.

  Introspection, that's a valid point about the fruitage. Then, it's a masterful point about the number of disfellowshippings! I've never thought of that. Great idea. If the Org is so good at producing good people, why are so many 'bad?'

  Expatbrit, Those are simple to-the-point questions that should give pause.

  JanH, that's so true to use the same rule they themselves use on other religions. I've touched on that once, but think I'll just use question, putting the burden on him as to why that rule applies only to JWs.

  NeYank, those, too are great questions. Are any of you lawyers? That's the way to drive a point home: with leading questions.

  Seeker, you did not disappoint! The dialogue is great--circuitous, but great. I intend to closely follow it.

  Vitavegam... Just makes my blood boil, all the leeway the R&F are supposed to accord to the hierarchy, but it only goes one way. The R&F have no recourse but to eat dust, and smile, and sell WTs, and devote their entire life, and children, and on and on and on.

  Thanks for all of these great suggestions. I feel much better armed now!

  I JUST LOVE THIS BOARD!!

  Warm regards,
  Pat
• 
  93

  "Mire of atheism..."

  by Julie in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  :i welcome those of your quality of character and refusal to sink into the mire of atheism or deep cynicism, .

  i found these words to be so interesting.

  i have seen posts (albeit few) that discuss the bible and whether or not it is of god.

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  patio34

  Alan,
  That is the precise reason I left JWs and then all religion. Dinasours have always bothered me, but then on watching the Disney movie, 'Dinasour' it dawned on me that in no way do they fit in with the Bible's teaching of all being eaters of green vegetation until Adam's sin. To me, it was the fatal flaw of the whole Bible. Then, the rest fell like a house of cards.

  Thanks for putting it into your usual well-written fashion.

  Pat
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  19

  peacable = true religion

  by Moxy in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  please help me out a bit with this.. jws, as a religion, are taught to live peacably.

  they do not go to war nor will they generally support it.. now, if i were to play the role of an apologist, i think i would just keep hamering on this point.

  "catholic killing catholic and protestant killing protestant" was such a great phrase and ties in so nicely with johm 13:35. now, let me play devils advocate and hear some rebuttals.

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  patio34

  Hi Moxy,

  i always enjoy your posts. This is a thought-provoking idea.

  However, the premise is that a Christian must refrain from war activities.

  It's asserted (not proven?) by the WTS Reasoning book that no soldier remained such after becoming a Christian. HOWEVER, is there any direct evidence from the Bible that this is so? Cornelius became a Christian while a soldier and, as far as I know, remained one.

  I couldn't answer your question, because the base for it is not proven to me.

  In fact, coudn't there be a good argument made for the immorality of letting everyone else defend one's nation in a war? While a pacifist sit safely at home reaping the benefits, your sons safe.

  One book that brought out this point to me was "The Postman." In that, the survivalists and other ne'er do wells were attacking peaceable folks' villages. They had a call to arms to defend their village. I tried to picture a JW saying their spiel, and it looked all wrong to me.

  Sorry, I just don't buy the premise and tend to think it's more immoral to sit back, reap the advantages, and let someone else fight for your rights. That is, in a actual attack.

  Pat
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  27

  Looking for definitive answers . . .HELP

  by patio34 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  one comment i hear from my jw son a lot is that "the organization (capital o!

  ) is made up of imperfect men, so they make mistakes.

  " what are some answers to that?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  patio34

  Hi all,

  One comment I hear from my JW son a lot is that "the organization (capital O!) is made up of imperfect men, so they make mistakes." What are some answers to that?

  Pat
• 
  93

  "Mire of atheism..."

  by Julie in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  :i welcome those of your quality of character and refusal to sink into the mire of atheism or deep cynicism, .

  i found these words to be so interesting.

  i have seen posts (albeit few) that discuss the bible and whether or not it is of god.

  1. 
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  3. 
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  patio34

  Good rationale Julie. Seeker, bravo for the rationale of the rejection of many gods. Everyone rejects some gods. Thanks!

  I am starting a new thread looking for definitive answers to a common assertion by JWs. Please give me your bright mind on that!

  Pat