Posts by peacefulpete

6

Apostles

by peacefulpete in

hear the word "apostles" and immediately the mind thinks of the contradictory lists of 12 men in the gospels.

however, the word (apóstolos) had a much broader usage in the greek speaking world, pagan, jewish and christian.

for simplicity i'd copy a few definitions.. the word apóstolos occurs only in the lxx in 1 kings 14:6, where it is used in a non-technical sense to represent the heb.

peacefulpete

Thanks Phizzy. That was the direction I was heading. I suspect it was part of the process of cementing control though claims of apostolic succession. That wasn't an idea immediately seized upon.

I also wanted to mention Irenaeus's intro to his third book Against Heresies, wherein he quotes Luke 10 (the sending of the 70/72) as being the words the Jesus said to the 'apostles'. He continues to use the term when recounting the Pentecost scene of 120 'apostles' getting 'perfect knowledge' . What's especially surprising is it was part of his argument against 'heresies' in which he enumerates a succession of church leadership in Rome. In short, he seems to be using the term 'apostles' as meaning first generation Christian. Peter and Paul are described as 'the two most glorious apostles'.

Call to mind then, the things which I have stated in the two preceding books, and, taking these in connection with them, thou shalt have from me a very copious refutation of all the heretics; and faithfully and strenuously shalt thou resist them in defense of the only true and life-giving faith, which the Church has received from the apostles and imparted to her sons. For the Lord of all gave to His apostles the power of the Gospel, through whom also we have known the truth, that is, the doctrine of the Son of God; to whom also did the Lord declare: "He that heareth you, heareth Me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth Me, and Him that sent Me." (Luke 10:16 story of the 70).... But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the Church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true.

Even in this context of attempting to argue for the superiority of his Church's doctrine due to succession legends, he seems to be using the term 'apostle' to describe more than 12 guys in the Gospels.

The growth of this concept obviously really gained a footing after the Gospels were written. While the names of the 12 (to match 12 tribes) obviously were not terribly important, the inclusion of a few historical persons into the list, (Peter, James and a John) was necessary.

Once again, we are stymied by uncertainty of dating and the originality of all of our material, but it seems clear that the final solidification of the concept of 12 Apostles as the foundation of the Church took some time.

171

Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine

by slimboyfat in

in an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.

this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.

the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.

peacefulpete

Again, much of this is resolved through appreciation of the concepts in discussion at that time. Adam Eylon, primordial Man, Original Man, Heavenly Man, born the image of God, Logos

Adam Kadmon - Wikipedia

6

Apostles

by peacefulpete in

hear the word "apostles" and immediately the mind thinks of the contradictory lists of 12 men in the gospels.

however, the word (apóstolos) had a much broader usage in the greek speaking world, pagan, jewish and christian.

for simplicity i'd copy a few definitions.. the word apóstolos occurs only in the lxx in 1 kings 14:6, where it is used in a non-technical sense to represent the heb.

peacefulpete

Hear the word "Apostles" and immediately the mind thinks of the contradictory lists of 12 men in the Gospels. However, the word (apóstolos) had a much broader usage in the Greek speaking world, pagan, Jewish and Christian. For simplicity I'd copy a few definitions.

The word apóstolos occurs only in the LXX in 1 Kings 14:6, where it is used in a non-technical sense to represent the Heb. שָׁל֥וּחַ, from the verb שָׁלַח, H8938, “to send.” The idea of God sending His servants the prophets is frequent in the OT, and the verb is normally translated by apostéllō in the LXX. The noun שָׁלִיחַ is used of Moses, Elijah, Elisha, and Ezekiel. In later Judaism this word was used to refer to those who acted as representatives for others (“a man’s shalīaḥ is as himself”). In particular it referred to accredited agents, often sent out in pairs, going from the authorities in Jerusalem to the Diaspora.....Christ Himself is described as apóstolos in Hebrews 3:1....It is used also to refer to messengers from the churches on two occasions (2 Cor 8:23; Phil 2:25). There is also an interesting use of the word to describe God’s messengers to Israel (Luke 11:49).Apostle - Encyclopedia of The Bible - Bible Gateway

The writer of some Paulines refers to traveling companions of Paul as 'apostles' (1 Thess 2:6, 1 Cor 4:9 etc),

6 Nor did we seek glory from people, whether from you or from others, though we could have made demands as apostles of Christ.

He uses the term superfine-apostles derisively speaking of those who he saw as arrogant but highly honored as teachers. (2 Cor 11:5)

Even regarding a woman as among, and even "prominent among, the Apostles' (Romans 16:7)

Yes translators have creatively found ways to render this passage so as to exclude Junia from the apostles, but they are stretching the simplest and clearest reading, the one shared by early prominent writers such as Origen:

Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and fellow prisoners, who are notable among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me. It can certainly be said both that they were kinsmen of Paul according to the flesh, and had believed before him, and were held as notable among the apostles of Christ; about whom (it is also possible that it should be understood in this way, that perhaps they were from those seventy-two who are also themselves named apostles,) and therefore he calls them notable among the apostles, even those apostles who were before him.

Also Chrysostom:

And indeed, to be apostles at all is a great thing. But to be amongst these of note, just consider what a great encomium this is! But they were of note owing to their works, to their achievements. Oh! How great is the devotion of this woman, that she should be even counted worthy of the appellation of apostle.

Note that the 'appellation of apostle' was an honorific one. Origen recalls the symbolic 70/72 'apostles' in Luke 9 (which is an expansion of the story in Mark 6 referencing the 70 nations in Genesis). Origen's (and Eastern Church today) assumption the word 'apostle' applied to the story in Luke (though not present now) as the word had not become intimately/exclusively associated with the 12 of the Gospels yet. This is transparent in the Didache.

The Didache (first century) chapt 11:

3Now about the apostles and prophets: Act in line with the gospel precept. [519] ?^4Welcome every apostle on arriving, as if he were the Lord. ?^5But he must not stay beyond one day. In case of necessity, however, the next day too. If he stays three days, he is a false prophet. ?^6On departing, an apostle must not accept anything save sufficient food to carry him till his next lodging. If he asks for money, he is a false prophet.

My above summary is for a purpose. It is my view that far too often when readers hear expressions like "teaching of the apostles" we assume it a reference to 12 quasihistorical guys. That is not necessarily the case. It appears from the scant materials we have surviving that the expression was an honorific appellation credited due to special assignments as emissaries of church leadership or more broadly of Christ. It seems in come contexts to have been associated with prophets (like in the OT). It was in some cases self-declared, such as with Paul.

There is much more that can be said.

66

Trump wins

by gavindlt in

i am non political and have never voted but nonetheless i have been keenly watching to see how the trump presidential race unfolds.

i believe that his involvement in propelling or influencing a leaning toward bible prophecy will unfold.

how, i can’t say but something tells me that this anomaly and outlier being trump is highly signifiant!

peacefulpete

I should have added that both models regard shocks to labor and trade to be destructive. Neither model favors broad (nontargeted) tariffs or unilaterally shredding trade agreements. These measures appealed to uninformed voters as appearing tough and focused upon American interests. American industry and the consumer would immediately regret such measures. When in office Trump boasted of ending NAFTA and replacing it with NAFTA 2.0.(USMCA) Whatever you want to call it, it created a free trade zone with certain conditions and parameters. We have similar trade agreements with the much of the free world. U.S. Comprehensive Free Trade Agreements and Other Trade Agreements | U.S. Customs and Border Protection

Recent post-election comments have assured the corporate world that Trump was just bluffing.

Howard Lutnick, co-chair of the Trump transition said: “If we said, ‘We’re going to tariff you the way you tariff us,’ do you think they’re going to allow Mercedes and all these Japanese companies and Porsches and BMWs to all of a sudden have 100 percent tariffs in America?” he said. “Of course not. They’re going to come and negotiate, and their tariffs are going to come down, and finally Ford and General Motors are going to be able to sell in these places.”

Some are taking comfort in comments like this. A check with reality however shows that the comments have no relationship to the facts. A 2.5% EU tariff on Ford and GM cars (produced in the US, not those already made in EU) is mirrored by the 2.5% tariff the US has on Mercedes and BMW. Japan has no tariff on US made cars and we have none on theirs as part of a trade agreement.

66

Trump wins

by gavindlt in

i am non political and have never voted but nonetheless i have been keenly watching to see how the trump presidential race unfolds.

i believe that his involvement in propelling or influencing a leaning toward bible prophecy will unfold.

how, i can’t say but something tells me that this anomaly and outlier being trump is highly signifiant!

peacefulpete

Mainstream economics - Wikipedia

Both models were incomplete and dated.

164

How did JWs arrive at a clearer understanding of what the Bible teaches than other Christian denominations?

by slimboyfat in

for jws who believe that jehovah had a hand in reviving the truth in the nineteenth century this is enough explanation for how jws managed to achieve a closer approximation to early christian beliefs and practices than other groups.

but is there an explanation for this phenomenon that doesn’t rely on supernatural intervention?

new testament scholar james dunn explains the difficulty of interpreting the biblical texts in this way:.

peacefulpete

You not hear yourself? The 4the century Catholic church used its own 'discernment' in selecting works that 'maintain doctrinal purity' as taught by the Catholic Church (what you euphemistically call 'the Christian community', 'Apostolic tradition' and 'Christianity'). Works that 'heretics' (ie non-Catholic) used were rejected to suppress. 'contradictory forms' and show only a 'unified message that aligns' with the Catholic church.

66

Trump wins

by gavindlt in

i am non political and have never voted but nonetheless i have been keenly watching to see how the trump presidential race unfolds.

i believe that his involvement in propelling or influencing a leaning toward bible prophecy will unfold.

how, i can’t say but something tells me that this anomaly and outlier being trump is highly signifiant!

peacefulpete

Soft Landing: Definition and History in Economics

39

Why do most Ex jW W‘s seem to be liberal?

by JaredScott-1977 in

i’m just curious about this dynamic i don’t care personally one way or the other but i do have friends who have chosen to be conservatives and they get totally destroyed on social media pages for their choice.

it’s almost like a lot of ex jw w become as toxic and his judgmental as jehovah’s witnesses themselves what’s up with that?

i also know conservative ex jw’s that can do the same so again i’m not leaning one way or the other i’m just noticing factual observations.

peacefulpete

In my circle of friends that are former JWs, we have all the above. I am decidedly center (as is Biden and Harris) but the recent sharp turn to the right for many Americans has us labeled 'leftist extremists' lol.

I have no problem with the label 'liberal'. Loving liberty means being liberal.

66

Trump wins

by gavindlt in

i am non political and have never voted but nonetheless i have been keenly watching to see how the trump presidential race unfolds.

i believe that his involvement in propelling or influencing a leaning toward bible prophecy will unfold.

how, i can’t say but something tells me that this anomaly and outlier being trump is highly signifiant!

peacefulpete

Riley, you are absolutely correct. The independent Fed accomplished what some thought impossible, a soft landing. Biden's people were professionals and did an honorable job keeping the ship aright. I don't have to have agreed with everything said or done to know that things would be much worse under Trumps stated policies. Hopefully Congress will again reject his aims to capture the Fed governors to do his bidding. He called Powell the enemy of the people when he rebuffed Trumps call for lower, even zero, interest rates to make him appear a hero. This mirrored Nixon and Reagan. Reagan was rebuffed Nixon was successful and initiated a decade of inflation. Interest rates cannot be controlled by politicians and political ambition without serious consequences.

Trump can never actually do half of what he said, because the consequences would be catastrophic. He will do enough damage even so. If allowed to control the Fed, impose broad tariffs like he has promised, and deport a large segment of our workforce, we can expect hard times ahead. The bond market already is picking up on that. Stocks are a populist greed-driven animal short term, but realistic long term. The Trump bump will center on a handful of sectors like energy and banking that are eager for less oversight and regulation and will reverse strongly in a year or so when inflationary pressures from populist fiscal policy start to show. The money Biden committed to much needed infrastructure will hopefully not be captured. Congress would have to be complicit in that., so who knows.

If he actually allows emotionally autistic Musk to cut spending as he promised to do at the rally ($2 Trillion), we will be returning to an era of seniors eating cat food. Musk himself said it would likely cause markets to tumble and cause hardship on the common people, not him of course, but you and me. Somehow, I think Trump will put Musk back in the closet now that he is done with him. Trump showed no interest in heavy handed cuts the first time.

Trump's promise to disband the Department of Education and supporting funding will collapse school budgets and further put America at a scholastic disadvantage in the world. He has proposed fining and suing private colleges for teaching history, civil rights, and politics he disapproves of. He wants compulsory patriotic propaganda in the schools. That just doesn't play. He's a social liberal who never had a patriotic bone in his body. I again suspect that was 'hyperbole' as he called it in his book.

There are far too many pieces of his agenda that would take years to push through, if he really intends to, it just won't happen before the midterm elections. If he starts out aggressive, he will do damage to the economy and people's lives, but most Americans, even some of his supporters, will push back if he implements some of what he promised.

Lara Trump wants him to change the Constitution to give him a third term, I doubt he will try, he's too freaking old.

I have faith that responsible public servants and the voting population in two years will contain the worse of his impulsive nature. We will get through it.

121

PRESIDENTIAL predictions...let the prognosticators have their say!

by Terry in

jw
friends

my only prowess in making predictions stems from my 77-years of life in the united statesgrowing up under president truman, eisenhower, kennedy, nixon, .....etc.

etc.i was a widdle kid sitting in front of a tiny black and white tv set when the very first broadcastsof political conventions, deal-making, debates (nixon vs kennedy), assassinations (jfk, rfk, martin luther king, etc.

) i grew up with duck and cover under my elementary schooldesk, the cold war, the iron curtain, the korean war, the vietnam war and i went to federal prisonas a jw conscientious objector while hippies, flower children, political activists protested and universitystudents were fired up on by troops.i grew up reading newspapers (2 of them).

peacefulpete

I voted my conscience. We will get through this.