peacefulpete

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Posts by peacefulpete

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  164

  How did JWs arrive at a clearer understanding of what the Bible teaches than other Christian denominations?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  for jws who believe that jehovah had a hand in reviving the truth in the nineteenth century this is enough explanation for how jws managed to achieve a closer approximation to early christian beliefs and practices than other groups.

  but is there an explanation for this phenomenon that doesn’t rely on supernatural intervention?

  new testament scholar james dunn explains the difficulty of interpreting the biblical texts in this way:.

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  peacefulpete

  How the New Testament Canon Was Formed (Interview with Dr. Bart Ehrman) | Watch
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  51

  2024 year Highlights: JWs hit 9 million Publishers

  by Sanchy in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  watchtower put out some highlights for the 2024 service year:.

  average publishers: 8,828,124. peak publishers: 9,043,460. a 43.2 percent increase in "those who returned to jehovah", meaning 65,816 were reinstated.

  baptized: 296,267. memorial attendance: 21,119,442. missing stat: number of partakers .. womp womp.

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  peacefulpete

  I can see the church growing, unrest in the world is fuel for escapist faiths. The modern media and slick website are bound to be persuasive. They have invested heavily, and I see no reason to doubt they are seeing results.

  My first concern is why so many of us care. We know if the WT didn't exist people would just run to something else. If seeing our old church continue to grow steals our joy, they still control us.
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  6

  Apostles

  by peacefulpete in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  hear the word "apostles" and immediately the mind thinks of the contradictory lists of 12 men in the gospels.

  however, the word (apóstolos) had a much broader usage in the greek speaking world, pagan, jewish and christian.

  for simplicity i'd copy a few definitions.. the word apóstolos occurs only in the lxx in 1 kings 14:6, where it is used in a non-technical sense to represent the heb.

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  peacefulpete

  Very interesting take on Matt 10.
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  6

  Apostles

  by peacefulpete in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  hear the word "apostles" and immediately the mind thinks of the contradictory lists of 12 men in the gospels.

  however, the word (apóstolos) had a much broader usage in the greek speaking world, pagan, jewish and christian.

  for simplicity i'd copy a few definitions.. the word apóstolos occurs only in the lxx in 1 kings 14:6, where it is used in a non-technical sense to represent the heb.

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  peacefulpete

  Touchofgrey....I don't think Paul originated the movement. He speaks of those before him. Such as Junia. The origins of the movement are lost to time. I've long said I understand it as a 'soft start'. Likely impossible to point exactly when a spinoff from a form of Hellenized Judaism actually occurred. Alvar Ellegard suggests it was the crucifixion of the Christ figure that was original to Paul. Who knows, but he does seem to say it was his defining belief. The renouncing of the Law seems to have been a big pill for his predecessors as well, so it seems Paul may have taken that matter to new levels.

  It's good to remember that even in the glossed history in the book of Acts the movement had not adopted the name Christian from its start.

  But as you said the Gospel narrative changed everything. Whether as a didactic play or text it fleshed out the story. Not only had the Logos descended and been killed, but he spent decades living out OT stories and condemning Judaism.
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  6

  Apostles

  by peacefulpete in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  hear the word "apostles" and immediately the mind thinks of the contradictory lists of 12 men in the gospels.

  however, the word (apóstolos) had a much broader usage in the greek speaking world, pagan, jewish and christian.

  for simplicity i'd copy a few definitions.. the word apóstolos occurs only in the lxx in 1 kings 14:6, where it is used in a non-technical sense to represent the heb.

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  peacefulpete

  Thanks Phizzy. That was the direction I was heading. I suspect it was part of the process of cementing control though claims of apostolic succession. That wasn't an idea immediately seized upon.

  I also wanted to mention Irenaeus's intro to his third book Against Heresies, wherein he quotes Luke 10 (the sending of the 70/72) as being the words the Jesus said to the 'apostles'. He continues to use the term when recounting the Pentecost scene of 120 'apostles' getting 'perfect knowledge' . What's especially surprising is it was part of his argument against 'heresies' in which he enumerates a succession of church leadership in Rome. In short, he seems to be using the term 'apostles' as meaning first generation Christian. Peter and Paul are described as 'the two most glorious apostles'.

  Call to mind then, the things which I have stated in the two preceding books, and, taking these in connection with them, thou shalt have from me a very copious refutation of all the heretics; and faithfully and strenuously shalt thou resist them in defense of the only true and life-giving faith, which the Church has received from the apostles and imparted to her sons. For the Lord of all gave to His apostles the power of the Gospel, through whom also we have known the truth, that is, the doctrine of the Son of God; to whom also did the Lord declare: "He that heareth you, heareth Me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth Me, and Him that sent Me." (Luke 10:16 story of the 70).... But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the Church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true.

  Even in this context of attempting to argue for the superiority of his Church's doctrine due to succession legends, he seems to be using the term 'apostle' to describe more than 12 guys in the Gospels.

  The growth of this concept obviously really gained a footing after the Gospels were written. While the names of the 12 (to match 12 tribes) obviously were not terribly important, the inclusion of a few historical persons into the list, (Peter, James and a John) was necessary.

  Once again, we are stymied by uncertainty of dating and the originality of all of our material, but it seems clear that the final solidification of the concept of 12 Apostles as the foundation of the Church took some time.
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  171

  Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.

  this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.

  the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.

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  peacefulpete

  Again, much of this is resolved through appreciation of the concepts in discussion at that time. Adam Eylon, primordial Man, Original Man, Heavenly Man, born the image of God, Logos

  Adam Kadmon - Wikipedia
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  6

  Apostles

  by peacefulpete in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  hear the word "apostles" and immediately the mind thinks of the contradictory lists of 12 men in the gospels.

  however, the word (apóstolos) had a much broader usage in the greek speaking world, pagan, jewish and christian.

  for simplicity i'd copy a few definitions.. the word apóstolos occurs only in the lxx in 1 kings 14:6, where it is used in a non-technical sense to represent the heb.

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  peacefulpete

  Hear the word "Apostles" and immediately the mind thinks of the contradictory lists of 12 men in the Gospels. However, the word (apóstolos) had a much broader usage in the Greek speaking world, pagan, Jewish and Christian. For simplicity I'd copy a few definitions.

  The word apóstolos occurs only in the LXX in 1 Kings 14:6, where it is used in a non-technical sense to represent the Heb. שָׁל֥וּחַ, from the verb שָׁלַח, H8938, “to send.” The idea of God sending His servants the prophets is frequent in the OT, and the verb is normally translated by apostéllō in the LXX. The noun שָׁלִיחַ is used of Moses, Elijah, Elisha, and Ezekiel. In later Judaism this word was used to refer to those who acted as representatives for others (“a man’s shalīaḥ is as himself”). In particular it referred to accredited agents, often sent out in pairs, going from the authorities in Jerusalem to the Diaspora.....Christ Himself is described as apóstolos in Hebrews 3:1....It is used also to refer to messengers from the churches on two occasions (2 Cor 8:23; Phil 2:25). There is also an interesting use of the word to describe God’s messengers to Israel (Luke 11:49).Apostle - Encyclopedia of The Bible - Bible Gateway

  The writer of some Paulines refers to traveling companions of Paul as 'apostles' (1 Thess 2:6, 1 Cor 4:9 etc),

  6 Nor did we seek glory from people, whether from you or from others, though we could have made demands as apostles of Christ.

  He uses the term superfine-apostles derisively speaking of those who he saw as arrogant but highly honored as teachers. (2 Cor 11:5)

  Even regarding a woman as among, and even "prominent among, the Apostles' (Romans 16:7)

  Yes translators have creatively found ways to render this passage so as to exclude Junia from the apostles, but they are stretching the simplest and clearest reading, the one shared by early prominent writers such as Origen:

  Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and fellow prisoners, who are notable among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me. It can certainly be said both that they were kinsmen of Paul according to the flesh, and had believed before him, and were held as notable among the apostles of Christ; about whom (it is also possible that it should be understood in this way, that perhaps they were from those seventy-two who are also themselves named apostles,) and therefore he calls them notable among the apostles, even those apostles who were before him.

  Also Chrysostom:

  And indeed, to be apostles at all is a great thing. But to be amongst these of note, just consider what a great encomium this is! But they were of note owing to their works, to their achievements. Oh! How great is the devotion of this woman, that she should be even counted worthy of the appellation of apostle.

  Note that the 'appellation of apostle' was an honorific one. Origen recalls the symbolic 70/72 'apostles' in Luke 9 (which is an expansion of the story in Mark 6 referencing the 70 nations in Genesis). Origen's (and Eastern Church today) assumption the word 'apostle' applied to the story in Luke (though not present now) as the word had not become intimately/exclusively associated with the 12 of the Gospels yet. This is transparent in the Didache.

  The Didache (first century) chapt 11:

  3Now about the apostles and prophets: Act in line with the gospel precept. [519] ?^4Welcome every apostle on arriving, as if he were the Lord. ?^5But he must not stay beyond one day. In case of necessity, however, the next day too. If he stays three days, he is a false prophet. ?^6On departing, an apostle must not accept anything save sufficient food to carry him till his next lodging. If he asks for money, he is a false prophet.

  My above summary is for a purpose. It is my view that far too often when readers hear expressions like "teaching of the apostles" we assume it a reference to 12 quasihistorical guys. That is not necessarily the case. It appears from the scant materials we have surviving that the expression was an honorific appellation credited due to special assignments as emissaries of church leadership or more broadly of Christ. It seems in come contexts to have been associated with prophets (like in the OT). It was in some cases self-declared, such as with Paul.

  There is much more that can be said.
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  66

  Trump wins

  by gavindlt in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i am non political and have never voted but nonetheless i have been keenly watching to see how the trump presidential race unfolds.

  i believe that his involvement in propelling or influencing a leaning toward bible prophecy will unfold.

  how, i can’t say but something tells me that this anomaly and outlier being trump is highly signifiant!

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  peacefulpete

  I should have added that both models regard shocks to labor and trade to be destructive. Neither model favors broad (nontargeted) tariffs or unilaterally shredding trade agreements. These measures appealed to uninformed voters as appearing tough and focused upon American interests. American industry and the consumer would immediately regret such measures. When in office Trump boasted of ending NAFTA and replacing it with NAFTA 2.0.(USMCA) Whatever you want to call it, it created a free trade zone with certain conditions and parameters. We have similar trade agreements with the much of the free world. U.S. Comprehensive Free Trade Agreements and Other Trade Agreements | U.S. Customs and Border Protection

  Recent post-election comments have assured the corporate world that Trump was just bluffing.

  Howard Lutnick, co-chair of the Trump transition said: “If we said, ‘We’re going to tariff you the way you tariff us,’ do you think they’re going to allow Mercedes and all these Japanese companies and Porsches and BMWs to all of a sudden have 100 percent tariffs in America?” he said. “Of course not. They’re going to come and negotiate, and their tariffs are going to come down, and finally Ford and General Motors are going to be able to sell in these places.”

  Some are taking comfort in comments like this. A check with reality however shows that the comments have no relationship to the facts. A 2.5% EU tariff on Ford and GM cars (produced in the US, not those already made in EU) is mirrored by the 2.5% tariff the US has on Mercedes and BMW. Japan has no tariff on US made cars and we have none on theirs as part of a trade agreement.
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  66

  Trump wins

  by gavindlt in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i am non political and have never voted but nonetheless i have been keenly watching to see how the trump presidential race unfolds.

  i believe that his involvement in propelling or influencing a leaning toward bible prophecy will unfold.

  how, i can’t say but something tells me that this anomaly and outlier being trump is highly signifiant!

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  peacefulpete

  Mainstream economics - Wikipedia

  Both models were incomplete and dated.
• 
  164

  How did JWs arrive at a clearer understanding of what the Bible teaches than other Christian denominations?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  for jws who believe that jehovah had a hand in reviving the truth in the nineteenth century this is enough explanation for how jws managed to achieve a closer approximation to early christian beliefs and practices than other groups.

  but is there an explanation for this phenomenon that doesn’t rely on supernatural intervention?

  new testament scholar james dunn explains the difficulty of interpreting the biblical texts in this way:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  peacefulpete

  You not hear yourself? The 4the century Catholic church used its own 'discernment' in selecting works that 'maintain doctrinal purity' as taught by the Catholic Church (what you euphemistically call 'the Christian community', 'Apostolic tradition' and 'Christianity'). Works that 'heretics' (ie non-Catholic) used were rejected to suppress. 'contradictory forms' and show only a 'unified message that aligns' with the Catholic church.