Posts by peacefulpete

40

Daniel Made Simple!

by Leolaia in

the large horn on the goat is the first king of greece (8:21), obviously alexander the great.

after his death, alexander?s kingdom was divided among four of his generals (8:22).

the high priest), and further causes the daily sacrifices to cease, and the sanctuary to be defiled (8:11).

Daniel Made Simple!

by Leolaia in

the large horn on the goat is the first king of greece (8:21), obviously alexander the great.

after his death, alexander?s kingdom was divided among four of his generals (8:22).

the high priest), and further causes the daily sacrifices to cease, and the sanctuary to be defiled (8:11).

Leolaia's fine summary of the final form of Daniel 7 and its application to the Maccabean period leaves little to be added, however for those interested in another text critical look at the chapter, I thought I'd share a few observations and proposals scholars have offered.

As has been mentioned before the 'book' of Daniel represents a collection, and a selection, of writings with Daniel as a character. I say 'selection' because as Qumran discoveries demonstrated, other Daniel stories were in circulation.

It is evident from an objective interpretation of chapter 2 that that particular story at least dates to the early/mid Hellenist period. Leolaia outlined the four Kingdoms in order are Babylon, Media, Persia and Greece, then the Greek empire is 'divided' resulting in a weakness not evident before. This clearly refers to the division of the kingdom of Alexander among his generals. It is said that during this period the God of Heaven conquers all. There is no mention of the events of Antiochus.

With this in mind. a proposal by a number of scholars suggests chapter 7, in an original vorlage form, (like 1-6) predates the Maccabean era.

Three dominant proposals have come forward, the one suggest the focus of the chapter (the little horn) originally was Ptolemy I Soter who conquered Jerusalem the first time in 320BCE "by deceit and treachery…on the Sabbath” (Josephus Ant. XII, 4). When the anticipated vindication by God failed to happen, the section was reworked and reinterpreted, as often happens, with application to the later conquest by Antiochus IV.

The second proposal is that the vision of chapter 7 originally anticipated a messiah with the descriptor 'little horn'. This means the 'little horn was not a malevolent character originally but, like the above proposal, when the anticipated savior failed, the character was reinterpreted negatively, in the person of Antiochus.

The third proposal is perhaps simplest IMO, Chapter 7 has been expanded and reinterpreted though the interpolation of a 'little horn' from chapter 8 as part of the process of homologously bridging an earlier collection of stories with the later apocalyptic section of chapters 8-12. Many have suggested, on linguistic and form critical grounds, that verses 8,11,12 (with its reference to the 'little horn') is a secondary addition to chapter 7. If this is correct, then chapter 7 like chapter 2 originally anticipated divine intervention at a time prior to the Maccabean revolt. A related but distinct view is that chapter 7 was expanded during the Antiochus period first then soon after served as inspiration for chapts 8-12. I like this proposal best as it also explains the unique form of the word 'horn' found only in 7:8 and not in chapter 8.

Any of these suggestions offer a solution to the language difference as well. Chapters 2:4-7 are in Aramaic whereas chapts 8-12 are in Hebrew. This suggests they once circulated as collections independently.

39

Merry Christmas Everyone

by jhine in

it's that time of year again .

in the words of the bard ( noddy holder ) " it's christmaaas " .

merry christmas everybody .

peacefulpete

Happy Holidays

42

Why do most Ex jW W‘s seem to be liberal?

by JaredScott-1977 in

i’m just curious about this dynamic i don’t care personally one way or the other but i do have friends who have chosen to be conservatives and they get totally destroyed on social media pages for their choice.

it’s almost like a lot of ex jw w become as toxic and his judgmental as jehovah’s witnesses themselves what’s up with that?

i also know conservative ex jw’s that can do the same so again i’m not leaning one way or the other i’m just noticing factual observations.

peacefulpete

I've become more conservative as I aged. Wisdom? I like to think that is the reason.

Or you just became your father.

8

Angelic Singing

by peacefulpete in

jo 38:7. when the morning stars sang togetherand all the sons of god shouted for joy?.

this passage and others apparently reveal a belief among some jewish communities that angels sang.

the natural corollary is that angels had a language, and that language would naturally be supposed to be a superior one.

peacefulpete

You make a good point. I was referring to secular or non-Charismatic Christian commentators. But certainly, Pentecostals have another (and probably accurate) view. The topic of tongues is an interesting one. A basic issue often missed is that it seemed to have been a localized thing and Paul seems unable to decide how to handle it. It's obvious it bothers his ideal of orderliness, and it also seems to threaten his control. He minimizes its importance and makes rules such as saving it for home if unable to say anything meaningful. And yet at the same time claiming to be able to do it more than anyone, in private.

The psychology of it is interesting. Anything you want to share about it?

8

Angelic Singing

by peacefulpete in

jo 38:7. when the morning stars sang togetherand all the sons of god shouted for joy?.

this passage and others apparently reveal a belief among some jewish communities that angels sang.

the natural corollary is that angels had a language, and that language would naturally be supposed to be a superior one.

peacefulpete

As an interesting side note, the names given Job's replacement daughters (sons are oddly left unnamed) are almost erotic, Dove, Cinnamon, and Blue Eyeshadow. It begs explanation.

My mind also pondered the conceptual link between Jobs 3 virgin daughters speaking in the voice of angels and Phillip's 4 virgin daughter prophetesses. What's the link between virginity, beauty and prophecy? Famously, the Oracle of Delphi and her assistants were women. According to Diodorus, originally the oracle was a virgin and beautiful. Is there some underlying conceptual link with a beautiful woman's power over men?

Who, knows. Another rabbit hole.

8

Angelic Singing

by peacefulpete in

jo 38:7. when the morning stars sang togetherand all the sons of god shouted for joy?.

this passage and others apparently reveal a belief among some jewish communities that angels sang.

the natural corollary is that angels had a language, and that language would naturally be supposed to be a superior one.

peacefulpete

I suppose the presence of ecstatic glossolalia within certain quarters of Judaism ought not be a complete surprise given the syncretic nature of religions.

Without delving into this topic too deeply, forms of trancelike states accompanied by babbling speech was also standard fare among Mystery Religions. And we find blends of Greek, Egyptian and Jewish cult practice in a number of regions. Of course, famously Corinth was immersed in Dionysian/Orphic Mystery religion which featured such elements. As someone particularly interested in Christian origins, I find all these bits and pieces interesting.

8

Angelic Singing

by peacefulpete in

jo 38:7. when the morning stars sang togetherand all the sons of god shouted for joy?.

this passage and others apparently reveal a belief among some jewish communities that angels sang.

the natural corollary is that angels had a language, and that language would naturally be supposed to be a superior one.

peacefulpete

Winged gods were pretty standard fare. Stands to reason that beings that live in the air needed wings. lol. Anyway, the Christmas spirit just inspired this thread.

I know the issue of metaphor is likely to come up again. Certainly, many of these ancient narratives were possibly written with some esoteric symbolism, but there is no way to deny the general population believed on face value.

Have you ever investigated the Therapeutae? Sadly, what we have is limited, but provocative. Philo practically idolized them and centuries later Epiphanius claimed them as Christians.

8

Angelic Singing

by peacefulpete in

jo 38:7. when the morning stars sang togetherand all the sons of god shouted for joy?.

this passage and others apparently reveal a belief among some jewish communities that angels sang.

the natural corollary is that angels had a language, and that language would naturally be supposed to be a superior one.

peacefulpete

Jo 38:7

When the morning stars sang together
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

This passage and others apparently reveal a belief among some Jewish communities that angels sang. The natural corollary is that angels had a language, and that language would naturally be supposed to be a superior one.

Famously Paul at 1 Cor 13 refers to such angelic language. Many commentators have discussed this passage with a general denial that Paul was to be taken literally. Perhaps this is due to ignorance of the belief that not only do angels have a language, but humans could be inspired to use it.

The Qumran community apparently shared this belief. Fragments of a document extensively describe singing in the tongue of angels.

Songs of the Sabbath Sacrifice - Wikipedia

The next example is the Testament of Job (T of J) written by best estimate around 100 BCE.. The work is essentially a midrash style rewrite of the book of Job. It's praise of Job's piety focuses upon his selfless giving of himself and his riches and his patient willingness to suffer evil. The author and the community it came from are debated. Some say the Qumran community while others postulate the Therapeutae, an obscure sect in Alexandria. That group should be a topic for a thread in itself.

The T of J is a fascinating work, revealing a soteriology in some ways Christian-like in others unequivocally Jewish (such as the directive to not Gentiles). For the purpose of this thread I'll share a section that assumes angelic language AND it's human use under ecstatic hymn singing. As a set up to the following, Job pulls out magic girdles that God had previously given him, he gives them to his 3 daughters.

21 Now then, my children, in keeping these, you will not have the enemy plotting against you nor [evil] intentions in your mind because this is a charm (Phylacterion) from the Lord. 22 Rise then and gird these around you before I die in order that you may see the angels come at my parting so that you may see with wonder the powers of God.” 23 Then rose the one whose name was Day (Yemima) and girt herself; and immediately she departed her body, as her father had said, and she put on another heart, as if she never cared for earthly things. 24 And she sang angelic hymns in the voice of angels, and she chanted forth the angelic praise of God while dancing. 25 Then the other daughter, Kassia by name, put on the girdle, and her heart was transformed, so that she no longer wished for worldly things. 26 And her mouth assumed the dialect of the heavenly rulers (Archonts) and she sang the doxology of the work of the High Place and if anyone wishes to know the work of the heavens he may take an insight into the hymns of Kassia. 27 Then did the other daughter by the name of Amalthea’s Horn (Keren Happukh) gird herself and her mouth spoke in the language of those on high; for her heart was transformed, being lifted above the worldly things. 28 She spoke in the dialect of the Cherubim, singing the praise of the Ruler of the cosmic powers (virtues) and extolling their (His?) glory. 29 And he who desires to follow the vestiges of the “Glory of the Father” will find them written down in the Prayers of Amalthea’s Horn.

While some have found it too incredible that a Jewish work could include such a story and sought to dismiss it as work of Christian redaction, in fact there is no basis for that assumption. The rest of the work is overtly Jewish which would be surprising if a Christian had adapted the text. And the Qumran fragments suggest something similar was current.

In conclusion, there is good evidence that some Jewish communities included belief in angelic language as a charismatic means to sing praise to God. Judaism was truly diverse. There is much more that could be discussed.

1

Pentecost Again

by peacefulpete in

it has been discussed on this forum many times how many gospel elements were sourced from the ot and related traditions and recast as typological 'fulfillments'.

the same is true of certain sections from acts.

i recently ran across an interesting section of the talmud that certainly seems a good candidate for the inspiration for pentecost scene in acts 2.. recall that the shavuot or pentecost festival was linked to the exodus story of the reception of the 10 commandments on mt sinai.

peacefulpete

This midrash was repeated:

P’saḥim:

Every commandment spoken from God’s mouth [mi-pi ha-g’vurah] was divided into 70 languages—so says the school of Rabbi Yishma’el, [who quoted the words of Jeremiah]: ‘As the hammer shatters the rock’—just as a hammer gives off many sparks [when striking a rock], so each commandment spoken by God was given in 70 languages.