Posts by peacefulpete

10

Pella

by peacefulpete in

this short thread addresses the often-repeated legend that christians fled jerusalem to pella and escaped the destruction of jerusalem.

the legend is based upon two 4th century comments.. .

the whole body, however, of the church at jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city to a certain town beyond the jordan called pella.

peacefulpete

Merry Christmas Raymond....Often legends, like prophesies, are reverse engineered, that is, something exists or happened, and a backstory is created to explain it. In this case, after the events of the First Jewish-Roman War occurred, it seemed appropriate for Jesus to have predicted it. Mark 13 was, I suspect, recast from an apocalyptic standard end-of-days piece into a specific prophecy of the war with the addition of just a couple paragraphs spliced in awkwardly. It has to be significant that no early writers mentioned this rather significant 'fulfilled' prophecy prior to Tertullian. Even Justin Martyr when supposedly debating the Jew Trypho argues for the superiority of Christ by citing his remarkable prophetic insight to predict the suffering and hardship of Christians. He somehow forgets to mention, 'Oh Yeah, he also predicted Roman armies were going to destroy your Temple and Jerusalem!'

There is an interesting reference in Josephus to a mass evacuation after the 66CE routing of Celsius' garrison at Beth Horon. Hyper-nationalism among the Jewish victors compelled citizens that had supported the Romans to flee in large numbers. "Distinguished Jews abandoned the city like swimmers from a sinking ship" (War 2.20.1 556).

It is entirely reasonable to believe any Christians living in Jerusalem left at that point if they felt threatened in that environment.

A distorted memory of that might have played into the enhancements of Mark 13 and the legends that Christians fled by divine revelation.

10

Pella

by peacefulpete in

this short thread addresses the often-repeated legend that christians fled jerusalem to pella and escaped the destruction of jerusalem.

the legend is based upon two 4th century comments.. .

the whole body, however, of the church at jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city to a certain town beyond the jordan called pella.

peacefulpete

This short thread addresses the often-repeated legend that Christians fled Jerusalem to Pella and escaped the destruction of Jerusalem. The legend is based upon two 4th century comments.

The whole body, however, of the Church at Jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city to a certain town beyond the Jordan called Pella. Here, those who believed in Christ removed from Jerusalem as if holy men had abandoned the royal city itself and the whole land of Judea.
— Eusebius, Church History 3, 5, 3

So Aquila (Translator of Old Greek LXX) while he was in Jerusalem, also saw (the disciples of the disciples of) the apostles flourishing in the faith and working great signs, healings, and other miracles. For they were such as had come back from the city of Pella to Jerusalem and were living there and teaching. For when the city was about to be taken and destroyed by the Romans, it was revealed in advance to all the disciples by an angel of God that they should remove from the city, as it was going to be completely destroyed. They sojourned as emigrants in Pella, the city above mentioned in Transjordania. And this city is said to be of the Decapolis.
— Epiphanius, On Weights and Measures 15

In these two passages Christians were said to have been given revelations or a message from an angel telling them to leave for Pella. A second passage allegedly from Epiphanius however reads:

This heresy of the Nazoreans... took its beginning after the exodus from Jerusalem when all the disciples went to live in Pella because Christ had told them to leave Jerusalem and to go away since it would undergo a siege. Because of this advice they lived in Perea after having moved to that place, as I said.
— Epiphanius, Panarion 29,7,7-8

It would seem odd for the legend of a revelation or an angel messenger to have arisen after the version that attributed it to Jesus, suggesting the legend connecting the existence of Christians in Pella with the Gospel is a later invention.

In fact, he first quote from Epiphanius forms part of an explanation for an apparent contradiction with the belief that Christians had left Jerusalem with the legend that they were in Jerusalem in Hadrian's time still doing miracles......they had somehow and for some reason returned to live in a burnt-out city! The record shows however that when Hadrian arrived (129/30) and determined to rebuild the city as a Roman outpost, Jews (and Jewish Christians) were still forbidden entry on penalty of death. That is after all what inspired the Bar Kochba revolt a few years later and the eventual horrific Roman victory. This demonstrates the lack of historical credibility of many early Christian writings. Distanced by hundreds of years and living at a time when the Jews were again allowed to return (313CE), Epiphanius was unaware of the impossibility of Jerusalem Christians returning and thriving at the time of Hadrian.

As an interesting side note, the earlier Greek form of Weights and Measures simply mentions "apostles'" thriving doing all kinds of miracles, whereas the Syriac form adds 'disciples of disciples of' apostles. Clearly, we are seeing a solidification of a more exclusive use of the term 'apostle'.

40

Daniel Made Simple!

by Leolaia in

the large horn on the goat is the first king of greece (8:21), obviously alexander the great.

after his death, alexander?s kingdom was divided among four of his generals (8:22).

the high priest), and further causes the daily sacrifices to cease, and the sanctuary to be defiled (8:11).

peacefulpete

deleted

40

Daniel Made Simple!

by Leolaia in

the large horn on the goat is the first king of greece (8:21), obviously alexander the great.

after his death, alexander?s kingdom was divided among four of his generals (8:22).

the high priest), and further causes the daily sacrifices to cease, and the sanctuary to be defiled (8:11).

peacefulpete

Leolaia's fine summary of the final form of Daniel 7 and its application to the Maccabean period leaves little to be added, however for those interested in another text critical look at the chapter, I thought I'd share a few observations and proposals scholars have offered.

As has been mentioned before the 'book' of Daniel represents a collection, and a selection, of writings with Daniel as a character. I say 'selection' because as Qumran discoveries demonstrated, other Daniel stories were in circulation.

It is evident from an objective interpretation of chapter 2 that that particular story at least dates to the early/mid Hellenist period. Leolaia outlined the four Kingdoms in order are Babylon, Media, Persia and Greece, then the Greek empire is 'divided' resulting in a weakness not evident before. This clearly refers to the division of the kingdom of Alexander among his generals. It is said that during this period the God of Heaven conquers all. There is no mention of the events of Antiochus.

With this in mind. a proposal by a number of scholars suggests chapter 7, in an original vorlage form, (like 1-6) predates the Maccabean era.

Three dominant proposals have come forward, the one suggest the focus of the chapter (the little horn) originally was Ptolemy I Soter who conquered Jerusalem the first time in 320BCE "by deceit and treachery…on the Sabbath” (Josephus Ant. XII, 4). When the anticipated vindication by God failed to happen, the section was reworked and reinterpreted, as often happens, with application to the later conquest by Antiochus IV.

The second proposal is that the vision of chapter 7 originally anticipated a messiah with the descriptor 'little horn'. This means the 'little horn was not a malevolent character originally but, like the above proposal, when the anticipated savior failed, the character was reinterpreted negatively, in the person of Antiochus.

The third proposal is perhaps simplest IMO, Chapter 7 has been expanded and reinterpreted though the interpolation of a 'little horn' from chapter 8 as part of the process of homologously bridging an earlier collection of stories with the later apocalyptic section of chapters 8-12. Many have suggested, on linguistic and form critical grounds, that verses 8,11,12 (with its reference to the 'little horn') is a secondary addition to chapter 7. If this is correct, then chapter 7 like chapter 2 originally anticipated divine intervention at a time prior to the Maccabean revolt. A related but distinct view is that chapter 7 was expanded during the Antiochus period first then soon after served as inspiration for chapts 8-12. I like this proposal best as it also explains the unique form of the word 'horn' found only in 7:8 and not in chapter 8.

Any of these suggestions offer a solution to the language difference as well. Chapters 2:4-7 are in Aramaic whereas chapts 8-12 are in Hebrew. This suggests they once circulated as collections independently.

39

Merry Christmas Everyone

by jhine in

it's that time of year again .

in the words of the bard ( noddy holder ) " it's christmaaas " .

merry christmas everybody .

peacefulpete

Happy Holidays

42

Why do most Ex jW W‘s seem to be liberal?

by JaredScott-1977 in

i’m just curious about this dynamic i don’t care personally one way or the other but i do have friends who have chosen to be conservatives and they get totally destroyed on social media pages for their choice.

it’s almost like a lot of ex jw w become as toxic and his judgmental as jehovah’s witnesses themselves what’s up with that?

i also know conservative ex jw’s that can do the same so again i’m not leaning one way or the other i’m just noticing factual observations.

peacefulpete

I've become more conservative as I aged. Wisdom? I like to think that is the reason.

Or you just became your father.

8

Angelic Singing

by peacefulpete in

jo 38:7. when the morning stars sang togetherand all the sons of god shouted for joy?.

this passage and others apparently reveal a belief among some jewish communities that angels sang.

the natural corollary is that angels had a language, and that language would naturally be supposed to be a superior one.

peacefulpete

You make a good point. I was referring to secular or non-Charismatic Christian commentators. But certainly, Pentecostals have another (and probably accurate) view. The topic of tongues is an interesting one. A basic issue often missed is that it seemed to have been a localized thing and Paul seems unable to decide how to handle it. It's obvious it bothers his ideal of orderliness, and it also seems to threaten his control. He minimizes its importance and makes rules such as saving it for home if unable to say anything meaningful. And yet at the same time claiming to be able to do it more than anyone, in private.

The psychology of it is interesting. Anything you want to share about it?

8

Angelic Singing

by peacefulpete in

jo 38:7. when the morning stars sang togetherand all the sons of god shouted for joy?.

this passage and others apparently reveal a belief among some jewish communities that angels sang.

the natural corollary is that angels had a language, and that language would naturally be supposed to be a superior one.

peacefulpete

As an interesting side note, the names given Job's replacement daughters (sons are oddly left unnamed) are almost erotic, Dove, Cinnamon, and Blue Eyeshadow. It begs explanation.

My mind also pondered the conceptual link between Jobs 3 virgin daughters speaking in the voice of angels and Phillip's 4 virgin daughter prophetesses. What's the link between virginity, beauty and prophecy? Famously, the Oracle of Delphi and her assistants were women. According to Diodorus, originally the oracle was a virgin and beautiful. Is there some underlying conceptual link with a beautiful woman's power over men?

Who, knows. Another rabbit hole.

8

Angelic Singing

by peacefulpete in

jo 38:7. when the morning stars sang togetherand all the sons of god shouted for joy?.

this passage and others apparently reveal a belief among some jewish communities that angels sang.

the natural corollary is that angels had a language, and that language would naturally be supposed to be a superior one.

peacefulpete

I suppose the presence of ecstatic glossolalia within certain quarters of Judaism ought not be a complete surprise given the syncretic nature of religions.

Without delving into this topic too deeply, forms of trancelike states accompanied by babbling speech was also standard fare among Mystery Religions. And we find blends of Greek, Egyptian and Jewish cult practice in a number of regions. Of course, famously Corinth was immersed in Dionysian/Orphic Mystery religion which featured such elements. As someone particularly interested in Christian origins, I find all these bits and pieces interesting.

8

Angelic Singing

by peacefulpete in

jo 38:7. when the morning stars sang togetherand all the sons of god shouted for joy?.

this passage and others apparently reveal a belief among some jewish communities that angels sang.

the natural corollary is that angels had a language, and that language would naturally be supposed to be a superior one.

peacefulpete

Winged gods were pretty standard fare. Stands to reason that beings that live in the air needed wings. lol. Anyway, the Christmas spirit just inspired this thread.

I know the issue of metaphor is likely to come up again. Certainly, many of these ancient narratives were possibly written with some esoteric symbolism, but there is no way to deny the general population believed on face value.

Have you ever investigated the Therapeutae? Sadly, what we have is limited, but provocative. Philo practically idolized them and centuries later Epiphanius claimed them as Christians.