Posts by peacefulpete

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

The whole debate is the result of third or 4th generation (of mostly Gentile) 'Christians' mistaking Gospel narratives as history. Once they went down that path, controversy exploded. Various rationalizations emerged, varying forms of Docetism, Adoptionism and Dyophysitism (and 50 other isms) each offered alternatives for how an ineffable God could also be a man. All of these forms however referred to 'Christ' as God. Even the Arianism that JWs like to point at understood Christ, as Logos, as an emanation of God. Writers like Eusebius often resorted to semantics and even red herring arguments to misrepresent that belief, but that is the nature of sectarianism.

The Second Power concept and the related Logos theology is the keystone to all of this.

Marcionism for example seems a radical departure, but it wasn't really. The central distinction between Marcion's view and Justin Martyr's was the roles assigned the High God and his emanations, Yahweh and Christ. Almost all the theological detail is lost to us, as all we have are snippets from his detractors. However, in the end Marcion too, thought of 'Christ' as God in a sense similar to Justin, or Tatian, or Valentinus, or Eusebius or the author of John. None of these writers agreed in detail but they were all attempting to make sense of the idea of God becoming man.

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

edit

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

Dismissing 2nd century extrabiblical evidence that passed though 4th century hands, has a certain logic, but given that the biblical texts that started all this debate have the very same history, doing so sounds rather prejudicial.

The only way to formulate an objective modern opinion is to understand the ancient issues and players. Tatian, was according to ancient sources, an Adoptionist (nontrinitarian). Adoptionism was a very clever theological solution to what were perceived as logical contradictions. The brilliant solution was that Jesus was a man adopted by God through the Logos aka holy spirit possessing him at his baptism. So, by this Christology, Jesus the man was not God, but the Logos inhabiting him was, brilliant.

Effectively it (and Docetism and many other theories) was Logos theology struggling to literalize the Gospel stories that 'fleshed out' the earlier conceptions of Christ. It was not the only solution offered of course, and passions raged between them.

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

The Diatessaron harmony of the Gospels reads:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God is the Word. This was in the beginning with God. Everything was by his hand, and without him not even one existing thing was made. In him was life, and the life is the light of men. And the light shineth in the darkness, and the darkness apprehended it not.

Now you guys can argue about that for a while.

3

Baptism on Fire

by peacefulpete in

going through justin martyr's dialogue with trypho yesterday, i found a variation on the baptism scene :.

88. and let this be a proof to you, namely, what i told you was done by the magi from arabia, who as soon as the child was born came to worship him, for even at his birth he was in possession of his power; and as he grew up like all other men, by using the fitting means, he assigned its own [requirements] to each development, and was sustained by all kinds of nourishment, and waited for thirty years, more or less, until john appeared before him as the herald of his approach, and preceded him in the way of baptism, as i have already shown.

and then, when jesus had gone to the river jordan, where john was baptizing, and when he had stepped into the water, a fire was kindled in the jordan; and when he came out of the water, the holy ghost lighted on him like a dove, [as] the apostles of this very christ of ours wrote.

peacefulpete

TofG.....Light and fire as universal topoi for knowledge, purity, goodness and by association deity, are as old as man.

I find the literary nature of these stories fascinating. there was an active free creative process in those early years. I.e. until institutional conformity froze certain versions of the legends into canon.

The recurring reuse of motif and metaphor is another aspect of this. Fire/water, Light/dark, Crop sowing/harvesting, tree fertility/barrenness, water flowing/parting. spirit/bird wings etc. Leolaia did a neat thread years ago demonstrating how parables were reused as narrative and narrative as parable, they were two sides of the same coin.

Jesus and the Fig Tree.

In this case a corollary use of the imagery is seen in Matt 3:11 where this revisor of Mark takes the line, "I have been baptizing with water, he will baptize you with holy spirit" and adds "and fire". This then serves as segue for another parable featuring fire as a method of cleansing the threshing floor. Luke follows that pattern. It's impossible to say if there is a direct link between Matt's baptism with 'fire' and the baptism scene accompanied by fire but they come from the same milieu of popular topoi.

3

Baptism on Fire

by peacefulpete in

going through justin martyr's dialogue with trypho yesterday, i found a variation on the baptism scene :.

88. and let this be a proof to you, namely, what i told you was done by the magi from arabia, who as soon as the child was born came to worship him, for even at his birth he was in possession of his power; and as he grew up like all other men, by using the fitting means, he assigned its own [requirements] to each development, and was sustained by all kinds of nourishment, and waited for thirty years, more or less, until john appeared before him as the herald of his approach, and preceded him in the way of baptism, as i have already shown.

and then, when jesus had gone to the river jordan, where john was baptizing, and when he had stepped into the water, a fire was kindled in the jordan; and when he came out of the water, the holy ghost lighted on him like a dove, [as] the apostles of this very christ of ours wrote.

peacefulpete

Going through Justin Martyr's Dialogue with Trypho yesterday, I found a variation on the baptism scene :

88. And let this be a proof to you, namely, what I told you was done by the Magi from Arabia, who as soon as the Child was born came to worship Him, for even at His birth He was in possession of His power; and as He grew up like all other men, by using the fitting means, He assigned its own [requirements] to each development, and was sustained by all kinds of nourishment, and w
aited for thirty years, more or less, until John appeared before Him as the herald of His approach, and preceded Him in the way of baptism, as I have already shown. And then, when Jesus had gone to the river Jordan, where John was baptizing, and when He had stepped into the water, a fire was kindled in the Jordan; and when He came out of the water, the Holy Ghost lighted on Him like a dove, [as] the apostles of this very Christ of ours wrote.

Justin's baptism scene is certainly more exciting than the usual Canonical version. A little digging online revealed similar traditions were evidenced from the 2nd century and continued for centuries.

A 6th century hymn on the Epiphany by Romanos Melodos, XVI.14.7-10

"and fire in the Jordan shining"

Ephrem's commentary on the Diatessaron and Ishodad of Merv both declared that in an early version of the Diatessaron the words appeared:

"... light shone forth, and over the Jordan was spread a vail of white clouds, and there appeared many hosts of spiritual beings who were praising God in the air; and quietly Jordan stood still from its flowing, its waters being at rest; and a sweet odor was wafted from thence.

Kerygma Pauli (Preachings of Paul) "...when he was baptized, fire appeared upon the water."

The 3 century "De rebaptismate" describes a group of Christians who included fire in their baptism ceremony following the above Kerygma Pauli.

The Gospel of the Ebionites: "and immediately a great light shone around the place"

Gregory of Antioch (6th CE) notes the fire on the Jordan in his Homilia in S. Theophania.

And two Old Latin mss (ita vgms) of Matthew 13:

And when Jesus was being baptized a great light flashed (a tremendous light flashed around) from the water, so that all who had gathered there were afraid

There are apparently many more examples.

Obviously, the symbolism of light and fire are in play.

10

Pella

by peacefulpete in

this short thread addresses the often-repeated legend that christians fled jerusalem to pella and escaped the destruction of jerusalem.

the legend is based upon two 4th century comments.. .

the whole body, however, of the church at jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city to a certain town beyond the jordan called pella.

peacefulpete

I'm learning all the time. I'm coming to conclude that the 'Memoires of the Apostles' Justin refers to, to be an early harmonization, not a fragmentary collection as B. Ehrman holds. Interestingly leolaia 20 years ago mentioned as much in a thread. It illustrates the popularity of the idea of a singular harmonization very early. His student Tatian of course famously produced the Diatessaron that served as the Gospel for the Syrian Church for hundreds of years. How much he followed the 'memoires' is unknown. This complicates the idea that the Mark,Matt,Luke order for my hypothesis regarding an addition to Mark 13. It would seem either Justin simply forgot the Jesuine prophecy, it was not included in the Memoirs, or the addition was added individually to the 3 in an increasing expansion. That last option seems very unlikely.****

So, I have to suggest either Justin somehow simply forgot the prophecy, or it was not in his 'harmonization' for some reason that I can't imagine. I still believe the prediction of the fall of the Temple and Jerusalem are secondary to the flow in Mark. As it creates awkward reading and has confused readers for 1900 years. The writers of Matt and Luke simply followed suit, adding their own touches.

****This also assumes the present form of Justin's works is original and the quotations/paraphrases of the Gospels are original.

9

Light

by peacefulpete in

the titles and labels applied to jesus in the nt were generally drawn from the religious environment of the day.

the name titles, logos and son of man have been discussed here before and demonstrated to have been in use by greek and jewish writers as personifications of concepts pieced together from greek philosophy and ot exegesis.

elaine pagels wrote an interesting article that reveals how g.johns use of the name/title light of the world has a similar heritage.

peacefulpete

I stumbled upon a line from Jerome's QHG, in which he wishes to refute a belief in circulation 200 years prior that the Hebrew of Gen 1:1 read:

'In the Son, God made the heaven and the earth.'

Jerome's purpose is to refute certain Greek readings in favor of Hebrew. I mention this random nugget as it certainly adds to the picture. I suspect Jerome had glossed the earlier theological debate surrounding Gen 1:1 much like he did in other contexts. He was likely mistakenly refuting a Christian Targum/paraphrase. What is really important is the theology inferred.

Jerome himself was passionate about Logos theology; mirroring Philo is just about every way apart from the insistence upon incarnation which Philo was agnostic about. So, in this refutation of the reading of Genesis he wasn't necessarily disagreeing with the concept expressed he was correcting an assumed translational error.

Here is a summary of Jerome's Logos theology from the web:

Justin’s Logos is God’s instrument of revelation to humans (Dial. 128.2). The whole world come into being by a “Word of God” (Dial. 84.2; 1 Apol. 59.5; 64.5; 2 Apol. 5.3).[3] The Logos goes under various names from Scripture such as “Glory of the Lord,” “Son,” “Wisdom,” “Angel,” “God,” “Lord,” “Logos,” and “Commander” (Dial. 61.1; cf. 126.1; 128.1). The Logos is the seed of reason by which philosophers and barbarians were able to know the truth (1 Apol. 5.4; 46.1-6; 2 Apol. 13.3-6). The “divine Logos” moved the prophets to prophesy (1 Apol. 36.1). Jesus as the Logos is, then, that “rational power” (Dial.61.1) or “rational principle” (2 Apol. 10.1), who “acquired physical form and became a human being” (1 Apol. 5.4; 23.2; 63.10) by taking on “flesh” (1 Apol. 32.10; 66.2; Dial. 45.4; 84.2; 100.2).[4] He was “born from God … as Logos of God” (1 Apol. 22.2), born in a special manner from a virgin (Dial. 63-70; 1 Apol. 21.1-2; 22.2; 23.2; 32.10-33.9; 46.5; 63.16).

Justin Martyr On The Logos | Michael Bird

10

Pella

by peacefulpete in

this short thread addresses the often-repeated legend that christians fled jerusalem to pella and escaped the destruction of jerusalem.

the legend is based upon two 4th century comments.. .

the whole body, however, of the church at jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city to a certain town beyond the jordan called pella.

peacefulpete

I suggest Mark 13 read something like this:

1 As Jesus was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!”

2 " I tell you, I will tear down this Temple and build another!"

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately, 4 “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?”

5 Jesus said to them: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 6 Many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and will deceive many. ..... 8 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines.

9 “You must be on your guard. You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them. .... 11 Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.

12 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. .....

17 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 18 Pray that this will not take place in winter, 19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again.

24 “But in those days, ....“‘the sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light;
25 the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[c]

26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

28 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 29 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it[d] is near, right at the door. 30 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

10

Pella

by peacefulpete in

this short thread addresses the often-repeated legend that christians fled jerusalem to pella and escaped the destruction of jerusalem.

the legend is based upon two 4th century comments.. .

the whole body, however, of the church at jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city to a certain town beyond the jordan called pella.

peacefulpete

The Synoptics were developed in a basic order of Mark-Matt-Luke. I can't see why that would be different in this particular section. What I'm proposing is that Mark was written perhaps as early as 60 or as late as 90CE, adjusted at some point to have Jesus predict the fall of the Temple and Jerusalem. That has been discussed before. That necessitates Matt was created very soon thereafter with Luke 20-40 years later after a number of other recensions were floating about (I speculate after the Bar Kochba revolt). The internal evidence follows that pattern.

Note also that Mark does not suggest the 'your House is left in ruins/desolate' but Matt does (23:35) and Luke follows (13:35). While this could be understood theologically, it more easily follows the literal loss of the Temple.

Whatever documents Justin has, which appear to be meager elements, he doesn't seem to have at his disposal any fully developed Gospel. That may be the result of lack of distribution or persecution. It is hard to speculate, but it is surprising given his living in Rome.

As I speculated before, the 'tear down this Temple and build another' element might have played into this as well. If some early version of the story had Jesus claim to be able to destroy the Temple and rebuild it, (as apparently was the same as making a claim to be the Messiah through an interpretation of Zechariah) it would be simple to rework that as predicting the destruction of it.