peacefulpete

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Posts by peacefulpete

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  407

  Is Jesus the Creator?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  that's what the word says.

  .

  colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

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  peacefulpete

  This hyper-analysis, overinterpretation of what clearly began as metaphor or OT parablelike narrative will never produce a universally satisfying conclusion. It can't because it is all detached from empirical evidence. We begin with the clever introduction of an agent into older theophanic narratives because editors understood theology slightly different. Then nearly immediately it is melded with Middle Platonic concepts of a demiurge as emanation of the Principle One. Then these emanations grew in detail and anthropomorphic descriptions to become angels, demons and Logos etc. Within a certain branch of Judaism many of these rose and congealed to become a separate entity.

  Then either

  1. a person came along that self-identified as this entity,

  2.was posthumously associated with this entity or

  3. the entity was later cast as a person through euhemerization/historicization.

  Whichever of these three you see best fits the evidence, the concept and figure of Christ/Logos is the product of centuries of theological elaboration.
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  407

  Is Jesus the Creator?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  that's what the word says.

  .

  colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

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  peacefulpete

  https://tenor.com/view/jim-carrey-dumb-and-dumber-la-la-la-i-cant-hear-you-gif-12096113">
• 
  407

  Is Jesus the Creator?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  that's what the word says.

  .

  colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

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  peacefulpete

  Hart himself would better fit the label of Christian Mystic. His God is arrived at through:

  ....infused contemplation, with real constancy of will and a patient openness to grace, suffering states of both dereliction and ecstasy with the equanimity of faith, hoping but not presuming, so as to find whether the spiritual journey, when followed in earnest, can disclose its own truthfulness…

  Being in this state of mind, he is more open to the earliest character of Christianity. A rare sort of Christian today. I therefore understand his attraction to the more mystic Eastern Orthodox church, but technically he doesn't parrot their Christology either.
• 
  407

  Is Jesus the Creator?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  that's what the word says.

  .

  colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

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  peacefulpete

  For one thing, the term logos really had, by the time the Gospel was written, acquired a metaphysical significance that “Word” cannot possibly convey; and in places like Alexandria it had acquired a very particular religious significance as well.
  For the Hellenistic Jewish philosopher Philo, for instance, it referred to a kind of “secondary divinity,” a mediating principle standing between God the Most High and creation. In late antiquity it was assumed widely, in pagan, Jewish, and Christian circles, that God in his full transcendence did not come into direct contact with the world of limited and mutable things, and so had expressed himself in a subordinate and economically “reduced” form “through whom” (δι᾽ αὐτοῦ [di’ avtou]) he created and governed the world. It was this Logos that many Jews and Christians believed to be the subject of all the divine theophanies of Hebrew scripture.

  
  

  Come on guys, he is laying out exactly what I've been saying. This is not the Trinity nor is it the WT.

  The later Arianism, as I understand it, was much closer to second power theology. Arian asserted that Logos was God as a somewhat limited aspect of God. IMO the sole distinction is that for Arian (and all proto-orthodox Christians by then) the Logos had acquired complete humanity as well as autonomy and entity. How closely this reflects the Johannine prologue is a matter of question depending upon the degree of temporality/historicity intended by the Gospel writer/s.
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  12

  JW Vaccine mandate: The contrast between voices of reason and confusion

  by ukpimo in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i was reading an intriguing post on the exjw reddit, a forum i do not with to sign up for, as i'm not interested in the internal politics of reddit.

  https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/1hwlja8/the_governing_bodys_letter_that_shook_bethel_and/.

  another post counteracted this one, driven by the "conspiracy theory" card.

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  peacefulpete

  deleted
• 
  407

  Is Jesus the Creator?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  that's what the word says.

  .

  colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

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  peacefulpete

  Not sure if you still want to engage Kaleb but regarding the evolution of the Devil/Satan figure, your objection to my comment seems to be in the suggestion that some Jewish circles had included a rebellious angel element in the concept. I'm not as fully read on the topic as I'd like but the Enochic tradition certainly included the idea of rebellious angels and a leader called Satanail, and the Tobit story with its Ashmedai prince of the demons sound very much like the Devil figure in the NT. The Ezekiel 28 Protective cherub that became wicked and the falling star of Isaiah 14 were connected in late nonrabbinic Judaism. Again, I go back to the Gospel and Revelation themselves, the descriptions of the Devil within are not presented as if a new revelation, the readers are assumed to be aware of the characters, it's the action that is the focus. Paul's (and G,John's) use of archon suggests some connection to early Gnostic ideation. That really is not controversial. I think it demonstrates the composite character of the tradition of Satan. I hesitated to include the Jewish Mysticism traditions but they often featured the 'Samael' Great Demon as a live character of rebellion. Probably only secondarily connected but in some Gnostic traditions the Devil was actually an earlier son of God than Christ. The whole idea of losing great position and rank by rebellion runs through much of these traditions.

  Specifically what part of my comments are incorrect? I post some speculative stuff to be sure, but it is always with the motive of brainstorming with more experienced posters. Be free to respond to error without concern for my feelings. I consider myself lucky to have had your ear.
• 
  407

  Is Jesus the Creator?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  that's what the word says.

  .

  colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

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  peacefulpete

  Well Kaleb lets agree that from among Jews that had adapted to Hellenism, Christianity arose.
• 
  407

  Is Jesus the Creator?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  that's what the word says.

  .

  colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  peacefulpete

  Since the Hellenistic period was so short lived in Judaism, ....Judaism had a very brief Hellenistic period

  But yet both of you have said that period was at least 300 years of cultural/political dominance and Hellenization. We all know it was much longer, but even at 300 years, that is hardly a brief/short period.
• 
  407

  Is Jesus the Creator?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  that's what the word says.

  .

  colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  peacefulpete

  Considering how quickly you put that together, I agree with most of it. There was an evolution of Satan from early to late Judaism to early Christianity to Catholicism. The same is true of the Logos concept.
• 
  407

  Is Jesus the Creator?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  that's what the word says.

  .

  colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  peacefulpete

  Philippians 2:6-11 explicitly describes Christ as existing in the morphē of God, a phrase that emphasizes His preexistent divine nature,

  Yep. That is why Philo called Logos, God and creator and image of God and High Priest and Son and Light and eyes of God etc.

  This is not the language of an emanation or a subordinate being but of one who shares fully in the divine essence.

  An emanation is by definition a sharer in divine essence.

  Philo's Logos functions more as an intermediary or instrument of creation, not as a fully animate being or a divine person in the Trinitarian sense.

  You have repeated that line many times now. I agree. Of course, Philo did not have any Trinity doctrine in mind, neither did Paul et al. What I have said in reply is the transition from anthropomorphized emanation to being is already in evidence in Pre-Christian works and Philo. It is my position that the earliest Christians themselves walked that line. Christ was a revelation drawn from OT texts seen through the lens of Hellenized Judaism. He was believed as real as the God he came from. But it was the later generation stories that followed that really cemented the image of a guy walking around Palestine. Did the writer of Mark intend that, I personally don't think so. I believe it was a dramatization of a Christian message of separation from Judaism. Others followed suit, expanding this persona with additional logia (as Hart put it), more fully fleshing out the character.