Posts by peacefulpete

22

About that pesky number 666...

by czarofmischief in

as a horror fan, i've seen every antichrist movie from the omen to the omega code.

and that number 666 keeps popping up.

so, i was thinking about that number, and how it's actually written in the bible is a bit odd.

peacefulpete

You can lead a horse to water, can't make him drink...Can't see the forest for the trees..........

22

About that pesky number 666...

by czarofmischief in

as a horror fan, i've seen every antichrist movie from the omen to the omega code.

and that number 666 keeps popping up.

so, i was thinking about that number, and how it's actually written in the bible is a bit odd.

At first what I am going to say will sound insane, but please read with an open mind. The number 666 is not an isolated occurance of numerology and therefore the larger question is why the use of symbolic numbers anywhere in the Bible? Numerology was not the invention of Hebrews priests. It's history is as long as history.As another comment said Babylon had magic numbers and it was a foremost center of such "learning". Astrology was not regarded as a merely religious exercise, it was the science of the day.

This association of astrology to earthly realities dominated intellectual thought throughout the period in which the Bible was written. The Jews were facinated with it as evidenced by many Jewish texts. It is the foundation of the Cabala.And the Bible. I know the objections, the apparent renouncing of such things in the book of Deuteronomy for example. A closer look at these texts however reveals a different view.Deut. 4:18 does not deny but rathers confirms the Jewish belief that the stars represented actual heavenly beings. And the author implies that Yhwh's objection was to worship of them instead of him. Also is must be remembered that astrology went in and out of favor through the years and therefore some texts seem to reflect a more negative view that others.So how does this relate to 666?

The twelve months of the year correspond to the 12 stellar Zodiacal points. These 12 points were from antiquity depicted as a cycle, on a wheel, in fact a doube wheel. The wheel within a wheel of Ezekial. The 4 cardinal points (right,down,left,up) were numerically 3,6,9,12 like on our clock. The 12 points were then described with a zodiacal sign, a gem stone,a solar month,and a phase of matter and energy. The Babylonian Zodiac (lesser) was adopted by the Jewish intellegensia. The 4 cardinal points on the Jewish/Babylonian zodiac are Aquarius/Oustour (man),Taurus/Kirub (bull),Leo/Nirgal (lion) and Scorpio/Nathga (eagle). These probably seem familiar. These are the "4 living creatures" seen in revelation chapt. 4. And the 4 faces of the creatures in Ezekial.The 12 gemstones that make up the heavenly New Jerusalem foundation(twelve apostles) are the 12 zodiacal gemstones in exact order beginning with the spring equinox: Jasper(March),Sapphire(April),Chalcedony(May),Emerald(June)Onyx(July),Carnelian(August),Chrysolite(September),Beryl(October),Topaz(November),Ruby(December),Garnet(January),Amethyst(February)

A whole world of numerology emerged from these simple beginnings. Because of their relative position on the zodiacal cycle numbers took on symbolic meaning. The numbers 7 (days of week, The Sabath was adopted from the Babylonians who practiced it before the Jews)and 12(months of year) were outstandingly significant. Other recurring numbers such as 40 or 70 or 24,144 etc.are multiples of zodiacal points, loaded with meaning for a person "trained in the secret wisdom". When these numbers were correlated to letters of the alphebet, words began to have special symbolic meaning also. "God's secrets" were being revealed through this "science". Letters and therefore words had numeric value. The names of the gods were in fact conjured by usig this method in reverse. Gematria was the application of complex geometric formulas to decipher the secrets of the universe. The Gnostic schools while having division among themselves had an obsession with this type of "knowledge". Ok what about 666. The number is a "man's number" according to the text. And the "wisdom" is required to "calculate" the number. Using the methods just described the name 666 equals "NERON CAESAR". Neron is proper for Nero. Interestingly later varients of the text use 616, which calculates to "NERO CAESAR" which illustrates that early Christians had associated Nero with the beast. Does this identification fit the context? Yes. Nero was infamous for persecuting christians, at his assassination a legend arose that he would return from the dead and bring with him an army of Parthian horsemen to retake the empire. Parthians were the peoples to the east (kings from the east) of the Roman empire that were the only real rival power at the time. This legend called "Nero redivivus" was so prevelent that between 69 and 88CE at least 3 Nero pretenders used the legend to attempt a coup. Remmber the verse says"One of it's heads was slain" but returns to life. Further aspects of this imagery make clear a Roman ruler is being described as in 17:9-13 where it is said the 7 heads are "seven hills" on which the woman sets. Rome was called the city on 7 hills. To identify it as Babyon was an obvious referece to the vice and punishment the Bible legends attribute to an ancient enemy of God.

While much effort has been made to identify the 7 heads as refering to 7 specific emperors,(there were 11 emperors up to the time of writing tho 3 reigned a year or less) the significance of the numbers 7 and 10 allow for literary license. Yet the 5th emperor was Nero and if the author saw the wicked christian hating Domitian as the Nero redivivus, it all fits perfectly. Well as perfectly as cryptic gnostic mumbo jumbo can to us. The references to a beast coming from the sea harken back to various ancient (at least 4000 yrs old) creation myths of a god killing a seven-headed sea monster(leviathan/Tiamat) to form the earth. The author'schoice to use this motif may alone explain difficulties with a literal 7 king identification. The 10 has been suggested to refer to the Parthian kingship to be shared with Nero.Who knows but the pont is that we are dealing with mythology and superstition not a "message from God."

More details to make this clear: The "woman clothed with the sun, her feet on the moon with 12 stars above her head with child being saved from destruction by going to the wilderness" story is straight from the temple walls of Egypt and Sumeria (Inanna and Isis)filled with astrological significance.

The fact that it is confusing was what has been it's allure for 1900 yrs. This was the appeal of Gnoticism and mystery cults. Their works were not meant to be understood by the unschooled as they often were condemnations of powers real at the time of writing. Couple that with the fact that 300 yrs elapsed beween the writing and the oldest copies we have giving ample time to adjust text to better fit the changing political and religious environmnt. It is also worth mentioning that Revelation was not widely adopted as cannon for hundreds of years until new interpretations of it made it attractive again. Each naive generation will "see" itself in it until a rational age finally sheds the infatuation with mysticism that has darkened human history for millenia.

Edited by - peacefulpete on 26 December 2002 14:54:17

Edited by - peacefulpete on 26 December 2002 15:10:5

Edited by - peacefulpete on 26 December 2002 19:37:57

5

Are the F&D Slave and the Evil Slave the same?

by eyeslice in

i had a look at a thread started by veniceit yesterday, then followed a link to her story, and from something she wrote there, i have been re-reading matthew 24:45-50.. .

the society has really taught that there are in effect two separate "slave" classes; the faithful and discreet slave "class" and the evil "slave" class.

they teach that the "evil slave" originates from the single "faithful slave" by becoming apostate.. .

peacefulpete

A few years ago I ondered the same point and drew the same conclusion by simple reading and comparing versions. I have disposed (recycled) of my old wt volumes so I will need help here. A few year ago, about 5, the "new understanding " was anounced that verses 40-42 were not to be applied during the last days, but were to be fullfilled at armagedon or at least during the big trib. verses 43-51 naturaly continue the topic of being ready for this future coming of Christ Therefore the claim that a broadening of responsbility and authority occurred in 1918, after the Lord's "invisible" return for inspection, has lost it's foundation text. Note the odd inconsistant use of the word "arriving" in verse 46 rather than "coming" as in verses 42,43,44 when translating the exact same word. Was this deliberate to enable a strained interpretation that happened to be key to the whole doctrine of "theocratic arrangements". I was waiting for this clarification for 2 years before my research took me in an entirely different direction. By the way if it hasn't been adressed lately a simple reread of the dozen and a half verses (in situ)that use the word "Parousia" in connection to christ shows no indication of an "invisible presence" in fact quite the opposite. Paul was reinventing christianity to make sense of Jesus' failure to come as expected, Russel simply reinvented it again to make sense of Jesus' disappointing delay. Someone should take this and run with it if it has not been hashed lately.

53

Bible is God's word?

by Moxy in

id like to hear some *reasoned* explanations for why you believe the bible is gods word.

ive been so fascinated by the study of *real* biblical scholarship since i began educating myself, i now find it incredulous that i used to take the bible as divine, along with all jws and tons of christians, including a good number here.

so id like to entertain your very best lines of evidence that this is the real deal.. mox

peacefulpete

sorry all, I was having a "deep thoughts" moment. I'm better now.How about those Packers aye?

53

Bible is God's word?

by Moxy in

id like to hear some *reasoned* explanations for why you believe the bible is gods word.

ive been so fascinated by the study of *real* biblical scholarship since i began educating myself, i now find it incredulous that i used to take the bible as divine, along with all jws and tons of christians, including a good number here.

so id like to entertain your very best lines of evidence that this is the real deal.. mox

peacefulpete

Now we are getting somewhere. For me and many others the real questions began after the spell of "belief" was broken. How do I protect myself from rushing to erroneous conclusions once again. What do I believe? How do I fill my life with meaning again? I read the personal philosophies of non-believing persons and found that they lead fullfilling and contented lives so I knew my life was not doomed to despair and vice as is so often feared. I just needed a new code to live by. Years of mental retreat had dulled my critical thinking skills.My involvement with the Skeptic Society has helped in this greatly. Skeptic does not mean cynic. Skepticism is an approach to learning that most would endorse but few practice. It is the application of reason to any and all ideas, the vigorous use of scientific method to test claims. This new philosophy coupled with a renewed interest in human welare through peaceful political means has made my mission in life more clear. The most reprehenible aspect of the JW thelogy is it's cultivated apathy tward human suffering. I say cultivated because while we may have momentary feelings of pity we detatch ourselves and justify our uninvolvement through the mental device of a future divine cure.

Good things come to those who read. But reading the conservative first equips us to analyse the more radical.On the topic of "god" this applies. ASK SELF:How do nonbelievers logically dismiss the "evidence" that I find persuasive? Is there more to their understanding of the world than I know? Are my gut feelings adaquate to answer life's important questions? A couple good books, The Moral Animal, Why We Are the Way We Are by Robert Wright (1995). And an eye opening book:Religion Explained, The Evolutionary Origins of Religious Thought by Pascal Boyer (2001). The latter book is a bit technical but readable if motivated. I think the second book shoud be read after the first as it is related but a finer application of the methods introduced in the first book. You will not see life the same. It is bit disappointing to demystify some things but ultimately it benefits us and the world if we understand human nature better.

53

Bible is God's word?

by Moxy in

id like to hear some *reasoned* explanations for why you believe the bible is gods word.

ive been so fascinated by the study of *real* biblical scholarship since i began educating myself, i now find it incredulous that i used to take the bible as divine, along with all jws and tons of christians, including a good number here.

so id like to entertain your very best lines of evidence that this is the real deal.. mox

peacefulpete

Hooberus...long time. I notice how Phds are relevent when held by those few who share your religious opinion but merely "worldly wisdom" when your opponents. But lets not derail the topic as we have been charged. Present your best arguement for the inpiration of the Bible. Moxy remember these are people's lives, we have defined our very person with these bible tales. The tact and skill you once used to teach others to believe must be used to educate.This is a very weighty resposibility. Knowledge brings responsibility whether we wish it or not. I hope I don't sound preachy but I know much damage a careless attitude can do.

53

Bible is God's word?

by Moxy in

id like to hear some *reasoned* explanations for why you believe the bible is gods word.

ive been so fascinated by the study of *real* biblical scholarship since i began educating myself, i now find it incredulous that i used to take the bible as divine, along with all jws and tons of christians, including a good number here.

so id like to entertain your very best lines of evidence that this is the real deal.. mox

peacefulpete

spectromize, I hope your still around. I'm guessing you have read the works of Baptist creationist Henry Morris who has insisted the same as you, that only the Bible tells us where the different languages come from.(He also believes the earth is only 10,000 yrs old and the "appearance of great age"given the earth at creation was to test our faith.) Actually linguists have been studying the subject for well over a hundred years and have some good answers. Language involves transmission and variation the two key factors for evolution. Language varients are readily evident by just traveling a few hundred miles or back in time a few hundred years. English for example:Our Father who is in heaven...Was ..Our father which art in heauen...was...Oure fadir that art in heuenes...was...Fader ure (letter that looks similar to a p)u (same obsolete letter)e ert on heofene...This variation was in just 750 yrs. Linguists use methods similar to biologists and distinguish patterns of relatedness creating a "family tree" of languages. Their independent findings reasonably parallel the conclusions of paleotologists. Humans originated in Africa and spread from there 100,000 yr ago in stages across the world, southeast Asia and Australia 60,000 y.a,Asia and Europe 40,000 y.a.,subsequently North East Asia and Amerias in multiple migrations. Once again the necessity of "divine intervention" evaporates as we learn more about history and science.

Edited by - peacefulpete on 23 December 2002 13:49:31

36

Jehovah or God is blood thirsty

by MrMoe in

second kings, we learn that menahem, leader of the israelites, smote all the people who refused to follow him and all the women therein that were with child he ripped up (2 kings 15:16).

later, in hosea, we learn that because the land of samaria rejected god, samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her god: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up (hosea 13:16).

hosea decided to carry out gods vengeance on the people by killing the unborn babies carried by the heathen women.

peacefulpete

It's difficult to give a simple answer to "when". First we must forget EVERYthing we think we know about the history of the jewish people. This is hard to do. So hard that even secular researches have fallen to assuming a core truth to many bible legends only to then wrongly interpret partial evidence to fit that preconception. It is really only very recently that some brave leading archaeologists have reexamined the actual evidence found and contructed an entirely new picture of palestine history. An entire book has been written on this one theme, that a complete paridigm shift is taking place, slowy but surely, and the whole science is benefitting from this freeing history from mythology. The conclusions that are being drawn are shocking to millions. There was no Moses, no 400 yr captvity in Egypt, no exodus, no 40 yrs in wilderness, no king Saul,David,Solomon, no conquest of Canaan, only a small tribal federation born in palestine that looked like it's neighbors and fought with it's neighbors, that did in time create a modest monarchy in a small hill region in a land with dozens of such minor powers. The rest is propaganda and distortions of collective memories.A golden age with heroic kings vanquishing giant enemies. I have oversimplified of coure but this is the thrust.All the "proof" for these stories have been reanylsed and reinterpreted in a way consistent with the facts. As to the picture of Judaism found in the New Testament...well it's wrong. Many writtings have survived from the various schools of jewry and these tell a much diferent story. The arguements of Jesus agaist the villainous Pharasees are late creations written after the religious and political shakeup of 70ce. In fact such extensive revisionism was done little can be said with certainty to have happened. The bible has jesus argueing for things with pharisees that the Pharisees were famous for teaching. In other words Jesus if a real person likey was trained as pharisee. The Ebionites were a sect of judaism that accepted Jesus as a spiritual messiah, they were active and accepted in the very tolerant Jewish community. A riff occured as to how to continue after the loss of this last temple. A new brand of Chritianity developed in other lands (tarsus)as these naturally saw the law and priesthood as obsolete. History was reinvented a new religion formed often called Pauline Chritianity after one of it's first aggressive proselytes. A great book entitled :The Birth of Christanity Reality and Myth by Joel Carmichael was an eye opener to me.It focuses on the political atmosphere. Another entitled :The Mythmaker Paul and the Invention of Christianity by Hyam Maccoby was also quite enlightening. This latter book infurriated me for 2 yrs until I came to terms with reality.It is great to learn what the actual religious environment was like.

64

Is God just teasing us?

by joannadandy in

ok yesterday i was talking to my dad (moe's thread reminded me) he said something about how bad satan was...and said, yeah but "wasn't it eve and adam's fault?

i mean yeah satan laid out the sales pitch but they could have said no.

you know gone home, talked it over with god, it wasn't even that high pressured a sales pitch.

peacefulpete

What the hell I'll through my two sense in on the free will issue. A great book i've just read :The Blank Slate by Steven Pinker is a best seller and deserves to be. He traces the history of the philosphical debate about freewill and human nature. The ood news is that science (social and biological) can tell us more today than ever. Yes it is true that an incredible amount of who we are is a result of our genes and the complex mental systems they have created. But these systems while present do not equally control our behaior. In others words environment, which involves a measure of choice, greatly influences which system takes priority in the mind. Humans can if we work cooperatively gradually emphasize positive social skills rather than the baser drives and in so doing assist all but the psycopathic to become better members of society. We have choices and they affect us and others profoundly.

36

Jehovah or God is blood thirsty

by MrMoe in

second kings, we learn that menahem, leader of the israelites, smote all the people who refused to follow him and all the women therein that were with child he ripped up (2 kings 15:16).

later, in hosea, we learn that because the land of samaria rejected god, samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her god: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up (hosea 13:16).

hosea decided to carry out gods vengeance on the people by killing the unborn babies carried by the heathen women.

peacefulpete

All I meant was that my research objectives were satisfied with knowing the basic nature of the latest findings, not the complex debates about interpretation of partial texts. Most of this material is not written for public consumption and is very difficult to read.And very expensive as most have low number printings for specialized markets. Cross's book is bad enough. Some of his students compiled a book :Traditions in Transformation which is an easy read (but pricey,$60 and limited availabilty) and has material about textural criticism and comparative study on the ressurection teachings of various near eastern religions that shared Palistine during Judaism's formation. To say that Israel or Christianity stol or borrowed it's religion is probably oversimplifying what happened. Though I sometimes word it that way really what happened was that like all cultures that share common political and economic conditions, shared values and motives arise that facilitate an exchange of religious concepts of what is ideal. If a particulr teaching beomes popular in one cult and has power to control or persuade it soon is adopted in some localizd form by neighboring peoples quite unconsciously. It often is a matter of debate who copied who, unless of course we can show that a tradition predates a supposed date of inspiration, as is the case with the Bible.