Posts by peacefulpete

8

What does it feel like when leaving belief in God?

by peacefulpete in

jw
friends

i'm providing this letter sent to the editors of skeptic magazine for any who may be troubled by a new awareness that their faith was/is shattered by disillusionment.

this is a profoundly difficult realization for nearly all who have had this experience.

yet lie does go on, in fact with time and reflection life for many is much improved after discarding belief in god.

peacefulpete

I'm providing this letter sent to the editors of Skeptic Magazine for any who may be troubled by a new awareness that their faith was/is shattered by disillusionment. This is a profoundly difficult realization for nearly all who have had this experience. Yet lie does go on, in fact with time and reflection life for many is much improved after discarding belief in God. -SKEPTIC FOR APRIL 15, 2003 Copyright 2003 Michael Shermer, Skeptics Society, Skeptic magazine, e-Skeptic magazine (www.skeptic.com and [email protected]). Permission to print, distribute, and post with proper citation and acknowledgment. We encourage you to broadcast e-Skeptic to new potential subscribers. Newcomers can subscribe to e-Skeptic for free by sending an e-mail to: [email protected] ------------------------ ------------------ GREAT LETTER ON SKEPTICISM AND BELIEF From: Susan Kawa To: James Randi and Michael Shermer Dear James and Michael, I've been reading, steadily, the small library of books you've produced, and felt it was time to register some of my comments. I may represent the "average" convert from conventional thinking to skepticism and nontheism. I am a college graduate in my late 30's, married, two kids, a dog, cat, and nice little suburban brick house. While I understand that some people are "born skeptics", my migration toward skeptical thinking has occurred over a period of several years. I notice that you both repeatedly express dismay that upon a particularly illuminating event or conversation, a person doesn't smack her forehead (V8!) and see the light. I think you should recognize and acknowledge that people who will change their life philosophy based on such a single conversation or event - are NOT the sort of people you want championing the cause of critical thinking. I think I understand why, when you present a compelling case to "believers" (of paranormal phenomena and/or theism), that they reject it outright or (later) weasel an alternate explanation that aligns with their original thinking. (For the purposes of this explanation, I will lump paranormalists with theists. I realize this is a blatant simplification, but the psychological motivation is perhaps similar.) You have to appreciate how invested people are in their belief system(s), even when they don't THINK they are. I was not raised in a particularly religious family. We did not go to church, but we celebrated Christmas and the other major Christian holidays. I never thought to question the existence of God - as I was busy having hormones, spending hours on the phone, and doing homework. (Incidentally, I never thought to question what I read in the newspaper or in textbooks either.) As an adult, my mindset is a direct result of my experiences; my knowledge base built on what - by study or by osmosis - I "accepted". How much of that foundation was true, and how much false, I still cannot hazard a guess. My transition (to skepticism/nontheism) has therefore been arduous. It is a heart-rending path, very similar to my other experiences of profound loss and grief. I'm not sure I would wish it upon others (though I believe the eventual payoff - clearer thinking - will be worth it for me.) This incident provides a nice metaphor: When my son was 7 or 8, he came to me asking about the real scoop on Santa Claus. He had it pretty much figured out, but felt it necessary to appeal to his ultimate authority (Mom) for the last word. I let him down easy (spirit of giving, spreading the joy, blah blah blah) and he was okay with it. Over the next week, he turned the concept over and over in his mind, and periodically approached me. "Easter Bunny?" .Yes, Hon. He went off to percolate some more. "Tooth Fairy?" .Yup. "April Fool Imp?". (long story) . Yes. All me. Even that thing with the water balloons. And in the end, he sat in my lap and confessed miserably, "I wish you hadn't told me." This is sometimes how I feel. I wish I could hold onto the belief that I will see my dead mother again, or that my spirit will live on for eternity, or that the really long life-line on my palm constitutes a guarantee. I don't LIKE knowing otherwise. And I frankly have not enjoyed the domino effect this skepticism has had on my entire belief structure (I'm still trying to replace religious references in my vernacular - with very limited success.) The one exception to this is the realization that my thoughts are my own. It may seem a small distinction, but let me tell you, it was Earth-shattering for me. To expect a single conversation or event to cause this profound transformation is unrealistic. The impact it has on a person's life can be devastating, and may require a grieving period. It is much easier to stop at "denial", when that is an option. (I certainly would have liked to stop at "denial" when I heard that my mother had died in an accident.) Voluntarily slogging through a reconstruction of one's psychological, and philosophical foundation, I think you will agree, lacks appeal to all but the most personally motivated. People gravitate toward the "skeptical movement" when they are strong enough or open-minded enough to accept the responsibility, effort, and personal sacrifice (socially, and spiritually) that it requires. A change in cultural climate is the best hope scientists and skeptics have to propagate this way of thinking. In the mean time, there is a percentage of the population that will espouse skepticism on their own, and in their own time. I'll end this with a sincere "Thanks!" for your continued and tireless efforts to provide people like me with books, articles, and commentaries to keep us thinking. I find them very helpful, even when I don't agree. Very Truly Yours, Susan Kawa

59

Let's tone down the America / War topics and get back on track

by Simon in

further to this topic:.

suggestion: should we stop threads discussing america?.

i have decided that it may be better if we call a halt to the topics about america and the war in general.. there is more background info in that topic but the key points are:all these topics are distracting from the main purpose of the board.

peacefulpete

It's Simon's house, he sets the rules. We are called guests are we not?

22

Giving Thanks to Watchtower

by thinker in

i came to this forum in the later part of 2000 shortly after meeting my wife.

although i still come here often to read, i rarely post anymore.

recently two very fine people, an elder and his wife, left the wt.

peacefulpete

well said.

30

how i got here

by danb71 in

after having looked at this site for almost a year and recently made small replies to threads, i should introduce myself to you all and tell you how i got here:.

i was raised as a jw.

it didn't take long to figure out that to have more independence at home, i'd better be a stand-out jw.

peacefulpete

Hey Dan...welcome from my wife and I

20

Wacko Talks

by gitasatsangha in

jw
friends

share one of the odder/funnier talks you've heard (where the manuscript went out the window, along with any degree of decorum, preferably).

one time a brother had a 15 minute part and he spoke very calmly and relaxed.

he smiled all the time, but the part seemed aimless.

peacefulpete

I remember years ago at a convention part of worldly music the speaker condemned a band called"McFleetwood" We kids found it funny. At my congo in the bronx the service overseer had a Jamaican accent and spoke thru his nose. He wore those reading glasses that hang on the end of the nose. He was abusing us with his WT conducting one sunday and found commenting worse than usual. The reason was we could not understand his questions, He made them up rather than reading those printed. After a long period of silence he repeatedly and snidely remarked that we had not studied properly. He then broke wind loud enough to hear thru the hall. My fellow bethelites and I were sitting in the front row. We simply could not contain ourselves, he then thru the mic asked "Is something funny?". No I am not making this up.

32

Ok, I NEVER post about anything having to do with god or the bible, but....

by Jesika in

i was in chat a few days ago, and the topic of god came up.

i was trying to understand how people can still believe in one.

now, just wanted you to know where this ?

peacefulpete

double edge...the generalizations and charactorizations at that link are typical language loading. He provides a definition and then broadly applies it negatively about those who do not feel a need for supernatural elements and who would define the term spiritual differently. Ethics and social responsibility as well as a sense of wonder are very much a part of the life and thinking of agnostics and Skeptics. To define spirituality in such sweeping language is a misrepresentation of people who do not regard themselves as spiritual due to their more occult/supernatural definition. By using the definition provided at your link all human other than sociopaths would be described as spiritual. I do not think this is what was meant at the start of this thread.

54

My response to Gerhard Besier

by Jerry Bergman in

all creationists liars?

response

to professor dr. dr. gerhard besier

peacefulpete

Jerry...Thank you for providing the link to the Skeptic tank site. While these guys are a bit more vitriolic then I find helpful they do provide a service that helps thousands make more carefully thought out decisions. A word search "creationist lies"" will as suggested offer many more oportunities to learn why many thinking people have learned to live without superstition and the pseudoscience of creationism.

8

King James Bible and the WTS

by robhic in

i could swear i saw a quote or something saying that years ago (obviously before the nwt) the wts considered the king james version of the bible as the best one available.. i posed this question on another group and so far have had no luck.

it may have very well been on this site somewhere but i have back-tracked as much as i can and still haven't found the post i saw this in.

anybody have any ideas or know where this statement can be found?

peacefulpete

The Society purchased the printing rights to a number of Bible translations. The KJ, American Standard, Byington, Emp. Diaglott, and others. The JWs like almost all protestants of the time used the KJ extensively. They did not then however accept it as inspired translating and often sited obscure varient translations. This of course culminated in the printing of the NWT. Since that time it alone is to be used in student and public talks. This is sometimes ignored when a neat loose wording fits the speakers applicaion even better than the NTW. These latter were always used selectively to offer credibility to various teaching including the use of Jehovah.

32

Ok, I NEVER post about anything having to do with god or the bible, but....

by Jesika in

i was in chat a few days ago, and the topic of god came up.

i was trying to understand how people can still believe in one.

now, just wanted you to know where this ?

peacefulpete

Jess...Hows this for a mindbender, The newest findings have enabled us some insight into the biology of belief. Various mental "systems" interact to enable humans to draw inferences from indirect evidence then illicit emotional response to impell us to act in what is deemed the most appropriate way. Unfortunately these systems are easily manipulated or just mistaken. In other words any discussion about spirituality must include some understanding of the brain chemistry involved. It is most unwelcomed by many to hear that other higher animal appear to use similar brain systems to survive in their environments. In other words it is possible that animals "feel" some type of spirituality! Spirituality often involves superstition. What constitutes a superstition? Is the dog that was beaten by a mailman and henceforth runs or bites any uniformed man acting out of a sense of superstition? Are animals that perpetuate learned behavior, such as nut burrying, actually transmitting "traditions"? All higher animal behavior is demonstrably illicited with emotions, anxiety, guilt, shame, grief, lust, fear etc., this is the way the brain has evolved to steer the body. Satisfying the brains demands triggers one of two reward centers in the brain and results in a sense of wellbeing and warmth. This reinforces the desire to act a certain way. Also in this way certain behaviors become addictive, comfortable habits. Religions are merely exploiting this brain function and usually are successful only when paired with the directive to rely upon feeling above evidence and the high brain functions of logic and analysis. So I ask, do whales and chimps have spiritual sensations? Quite possibly, but humans are unique in having the ability to understand why they feel the way they do and reason out a better course when the evidence merits one.

1

j.w youngend

by kilroy2 in

i just finished watching a program about the hitler youth.

i is amazing the parallels between the hitler youth [the way the goverment recreuted them and brain washed them] and the way the tower workes.. first thay would recreut the members.

give them a status thay are better than the nonmembers.

peacefulpete

High control groups of all stripes use similar methods, often the difference is in degree and objective. Go to the AFF American Family Foundation and read some of the articles defining cult methods and identifying unethical control techniques. Learning to identify these underlying issues will protect a person from falling victim to any number of unhealthy movements and organizations.