Posts by peacefulpete

9

Solomon and Apostacy

by RubaDub in

issue .... i've never gotton a good answer about king solomon's later life in which the bible says he married "foreign" wifes and worshipped their gods.. from my dub perspective, this always sounded like plain, clear, unadulterated apostacy.

i mean, if i begin attending the catholic church i would be da'd in a minute and branded as being an apostate.

but we never hear solomon referred to as an apostate.

peacefulpete

Rub-a dub...Let it go. The Solomon stories are origin legends (created history to cement a sense of solidarity in a modern audience)that typified the priestly mind of the post Babylonian period. The story was a moral treatise about the dangers of self glorification and arrogant wisdom. IF there ever was a man named Solomon (unlikely) he most certainly did not have the power, luxury and wealth ascribed to him in these legends. This has been explained here before. History has absolutely no room for such a King of a kingdom that did not exist at the time attributed to him.

30

Part 2 The Greatest Story Ever Sold

by hooberus in

scholar, visionary

acharya s has gained mastery in several religions, as well other esoterica and the supernatural, and has a number of students and devotees.

she is also the author of several books, including

peacefulpete

I misspoke about the site you linked as admitting Dionysus death was associated with a tree, it was Attis. Yes, versions of the legend have his death caused by boar like Adonis was earlier. (worshipers of Adonis were like he jews forbidden to eat pork, Adonis was the name used by the Jews for their god at times (Adonai)). In other versions he castrated himself and bled to death under a pine tree, hence his worshipers depicted his effigy on a tree on a stick as an emblem of their cult.

30

Part 2 The Greatest Story Ever Sold

by hooberus in

scholar, visionary

acharya s has gained mastery in several religions, as well other esoterica and the supernatural, and has a number of students and devotees.

she is also the author of several books, including

peacefulpete

I'm not sure what to say Hooby. Your ready to fight but we seem to be agreeing. The matter of the crucifixion is a hotly debated one. As the infidels site honestly and frankly pointed out the enthusiasm about Krishna parallels has lead some to accept everything that they see on the internet or read. If you reread my comments I think you will see this is how I too feel. As to the matter of dating certain icons from the early centuries CE the opinion of some scholars identify these as Jesus others as Dionysus/Osiris figures. The late date (5th century)given to Christianity's first definative Jesus icons is solid scholarship. They are avoiding the muddy identification of some depictions as being Jesus when the iconography is in debate. I am sure I read at the site you posted a comment about the artwork of Dionysus crucifixion indeed did predate Christian's use of the icon but sorry I cannot produce the sentence as I do not recall exactly where at the site. As to the the tree element(symbolizing life) included in a number of these mythical deaths.(dying under a tree, stuck to a tree with arrows, bleeding to death under a tree,hung in tree etc.) The Tammuz/Innana story has recently become better understood. Formerly the crucifixion/resurrection was ascribed to Tammuz (whose standard was the cross)due to partial texts and now it appears it actually was his lover godess Innana. This can be learned at the infidels site as well. The other solar wheel/cross icons can also be studied there. I can not provide links with my webtv but it seems you already have found the site. The Josephus thing is just as you said a hotly debated matter. To learn the reasons for not accepting them as written or not accepting them as Joseph's, read the scholars that disagree with the fundementalists who have practically cannonized the passages. (please do not respond by posting links that seem to disagree with this admitted charactorization) I maybe wrong but it sees to me that the earliest copies we have of Joe's work is 9th/10th century. I know some late christian writers (4th?)referred to it or at least some interpret the wording as referring to Joe's work but none of the earliest writers who were under pressure to defend Christianity from the charge that it was a rip off of Pagan mystery cults ever used him as a reference. This may be very powerful evidence agaist it's authnticity. But I will not leap into a debate that is currently raging at other sites by people more qualified than me to speak. (the "jesus myteries" discussion at Yahoo for instance) As to the post christian date for Krishna crucifixion icons, I said this to you in my post. I am not certain about the date for those pointed to in Arkaya's rebuttal but is is possible that some prehristian Krisha examples exist. I don't really care. The Roman practice of crucifixion no doubt influenced the iconography and so the image may have carried more/new symbolism after the practice was adopted by the Romans. I wonder why you have no interest in the antiquity of the cross as a religious symbol. Is this not the very issue you are questioning? Or is it your belief that a cross is less symbolic of Christianity than a crucifix? (rhetorical)

It is very important to understand that religion and philosophies evolve when transmitted and adapted. The cross/crucifixtion is merely one of dozens of theological and narrative similarities with the religions existing before christianity. These myths plus mix of enlightened Greek philosophies and possible allusions to a historical freedom fighter/philosopher at it's core, explain the origins of Christianity quite easily without requiring inspiration and supernatural happenings. The expression "missing the forest for the trees" may apply here if a person became obsessed with details and dismiss the larger meaning and symbolism of cults and myths. The whole debate about whether a myth includes a "true" "resurection" rather than a "resucitaion from the dead" or "revivication" or "ascension" is a innane waste of time. In fact the site makes much about this because of the author's insistance upon a "bodily" resurection rather than a spirit resurrection in the case of Jesus. Of course Christian's themselves have argued about this for hundreds of years(JWs say no), so it appears their arguement is largely founded upon a theological interpretation. (please don't post links to defend any particular doctrine) And yes I know even some cautious skeptics have drawn some distictions but these are minor theological developements resulting from the amalgum of the pagan mythos with the Judaic resurrection expectations of the 1rst and 2nd ceturies. Keep reading at the infidels site and Price's Skeptical review if in fact you are questioning your faith. It appears far more likely however that the topic is inseparable in your mind with ultimate purpose and meaning to life and therefore not a matter that can be reviewed dispassionately. For this I do not fault you.

82

What is the WTS's motive?

by careful fader in

can anyone help me understand the motive of the wts?

i don't think it's money .

the gb lives at bethel in a pretty low standard of living.

peacefulpete

I read Steven Piner's book aout human nature and it expounds upon he way the mind is wired for self deception. It makes us better liers if we are not aware we are in fact lying. It is complicated but the bottom line is we can pursue a delusion to the extreme end (death,killing,shunning etc.)as long as the delusion is working. This is why people leave only when the facade is cracked by scandal or injustice first. The delusion is perceived as no longer beneficial and is can then be recognised as a farse. Typically the next delusion is to blame others for the having been blind. Typically those deluded by their own minds twist facts and logic without consciously deceptive motives. When a person of the opposing view however sees the delusion in another person the arguements are seen as "lies and cover ups" when the terms delusions and distortions is pobably closer to the fact. Knowing this about our minds can humble us enough to rethink cherished views we unquestionably accept. Critical thinking is difficult exactly for these reasons, it works counter to our mind's inclination tward self deception.

42

Historical Problems in Bible

by IronGland in

historical problems, inconsistencies, and contradictions comprise a significant part of the bible: .

(1) "thirty and two years old was he (jehoram--ed.

) when he began to reign, and he reigned in jerusalem 8 years, and departed without being desired.

peacefulpete

I like the 2 chron 14 story about King Asa of Judah killing every last one of an invading army of 1,000,000 Ethiopians. As to Hooberu's explanation that inaccuracies resulted from copyist errors. Ok I'll suggest that any historically inaccurate or barbaric or unscientific or anachronistic passages were the result of human contamination of the holy text that God has promised to preserve forever. It is strange how those who are Bible inerranists invoke scribal error when backed into the corner. Do not the Mormons also believe that Bible is the word of God in so far as it has been accurately translated? It always bothered me to tell people thatJehovah had preserved his word through the centuries dispite Satan's evil attempts to change it then inform them about how their Bible was translated wrong or was based upon inaccurate manuscripts.

6

Jehovah's Witnesses role in WWII

by ApagaLaLuz in

here's a quick thought that i had while watching the hitler mini-series this week.

i remember learning that the jehovah's witnesses had sent an open letter to adolph hitler condemning his treatment of humans after taking rule.

they are very quick and vocal to let people know that they spoke up, and that was one of the reasons they too suffered at his hands.

peacefulpete

Neutrality is an illusion. You are for change or statis quo. Either why you are taking a stand that reveals how you feel.

6

Jehovah's Witnesses role in WWII

by ApagaLaLuz in

here's a quick thought that i had while watching the hitler mini-series this week.

i remember learning that the jehovah's witnesses had sent an open letter to adolph hitler condemning his treatment of humans after taking rule.

they are very quick and vocal to let people know that they spoke up, and that was one of the reasons they too suffered at his hands.

peacefulpete

Of coarse most here know that the first letter to hitler was a unconsciencable antisemetic attempt to garner favor. The second was an unveiled threat. Neither is neutral. In my peace group it came up in conversation that the witnesses are not neutral just because they condemn all the governments equally. This is a negative stand. They are then antigovernment. Anarchist seems to imply working to destroy or undermine, this does not describe their stand. They have decided to be against anything that requires anything meaningful from them as citizens and encourage all others to do the same.

30

Part 2 The Greatest Story Ever Sold

by hooberus in

scholar, visionary

acharya s has gained mastery in several religions, as well other esoterica and the supernatural, and has a number of students and devotees.

she is also the author of several books, including

peacefulpete

Hooberus...you must check your sources as well if you decide to charactorize a field of study as dishonest. Does the site represent the best source of information about the current scholarly research or is it the well meaning but oversimplified interprtation of this research? There are hundreds of site about this topic and only a few are posted by the scholars themselves. It is true of course that some of the statements made at any of these sites are loosly defined and therefore easy to debate. For instance the rucifiction thing you brought up earlier. It was stated by your christian web site that it is undeniable that the cross predates christianity by hundreds of years. It was also admitted that First/second century Pagans were the first to use a crucified image of their gods, before the christians followed suit in the 4th-5th century. It has also been pinted out that in prechristian times a least occasionally a human form was placed upon a solar wheeel/cross to represent the life cycle of the sun. It was also shown by Archyra that at least some experts have dated christlike crucifixions as BC. The Tammuz/Innana myth has a very undeniable prechristian crucifixtion of the God/goddess. As your site also admitted,the Dionysus myth has him dying at the base of a tree so his worshippers depicted his image as a human figure standing attatched to a tree. For anyone to deny that Krishna and Buddha are shown in artwork (post christian) as crucified is very strange as it is shown all over the internet. The comments by Price about Archyra's book reflect a very conservative definition of crucifixion and disgust about her mixing fact and fiction (aliens and masons crap). I have asked him what he said in it's entirety and he did not remeber making the review but will get back to me. Some of the debate surrounds the definition of crucifixion. Some ,usually christian apologists, define it narrowly as death by hanging upon a Romanesque cross. Others are more liberal defining it as depiction of the god with arms outstretched or hung upon pole or death associated with a tree. It is good to reflect upon the way that the refutation you provided was written. He ommitted details that supported his opponents position and ignored her explanation about the Gospel pun in her book insisting he knew what she was thinking better than her. The Josephus thing is incrediblyshaky footing for establishing historical Jesus. As admitted in your post nearly noone accepts the TJ passage as it is written. It is however misleading to suggest that a change of one word was all that suspect. If you searched online for that post you likely found numerous textural, grammatical, theological and historical arguements that cast both passages into great doubt. Those that have publicly said that there is no known historical document that establihes a historical Jesus of Nazareth are not "ignoring" these passages, they just know the issues that plague them. The name Jesus (Yawah saves) was in fact very common, in fact it seems it was little more than a title that numerous religios and resistance leaders assumed. It is in fact probable that the passage about James was referring to a James and Jesus in an earlier chapter that stirred division in the priesthood and a late christian editor possible Tertullian adjusted slightly to make it apply to his Jesus. But thats another topic. Other reviews at the tektonics site like that of Sponge's book make much of what are likely typographical errors or simple mistakes. When Sponge corrected the error in his next printing they accused him of "covering his tracks". Come on. Reviews must focus on the points developed and the theme developed. They did nothing other than dismiss his work off handedly by attacking his scholarly ability. If you have not spent a few days reading the discussions at the two sites I posted earlier please do so. Price gives equal space and time and posts the whole dicussion. It may be revealing to you. If not then there is nothing furthur I can add. It is a matter of faith like the 6000 year old earth.

30

Part 2 The Greatest Story Ever Sold

by hooberus in

scholar, visionary

acharya s has gained mastery in several religions, as well other esoterica and the supernatural, and has a number of students and devotees.

she is also the author of several books, including

peacefulpete

tes

30

Part 2 The Greatest Story Ever Sold

by hooberus in

scholar, visionary

acharya s has gained mastery in several religions, as well other esoterica and the supernatural, and has a number of students and devotees.

she is also the author of several books, including

peacefulpete

To learn the reasons why the arguements in defence of Bible inerrancy are in fact flawed and often deceptive go to the Skeptic Review site and the Journal Bibical Critism. Both are free to read. The twisted logic and disinformation at the tektonics site truly is a disservice to the public. Hooby I can only encourage you to read at thesites I listed above and hope that at least you will not continue to be blind as to how they have distorted the facts and the arguements of their oponents. This is the first time in days that I can even log on at home to this forum. I would give money to have the old program back.