Posts by peacefulpete

51

Searching

by Striker in

jude 1:9 (kjv) yet michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, the lord rebuke thee.. matthew 4:10 (kjv) then saith jesus unto him, get thee hence, satan: for it is written, thou shalt worship the lord thy god, and him only shalt thou serve.

.

.....my understanding is that you all believe jesus is michael the archangel....... the two verses above describe two different personalities..... the archangel in jude rebuked satan in the name of the father, because he knew it was not his place to rebuke him, he knew that he didn't have the authority to do so, that the only person who possesses this authority is god himself.... while jesus, in matthew 4:10, does not need to invoke the name of the father to rebuke satan, because the father and jesus are one, not michael and jesus..... .... because michael the archangel is not jesus christ our savior.....

peacefulpete

For comparison 4Q44 actually reads:

43 Rejoice, heavens, with his people,
and bow down to him, all gods,(divine ones) for he will avenge the blood of his sons.

It is often regarded as the volage, the source text, for the LXX. We can see now the LXX insertion of another line referencing angels in an attempt to redefine the 'divine sons' as angels. We can also see in this early 4Q44 form the use of 'sons' rather than "servants' as appears in the MT and SP. This looks back at the line above it. Thereby redefining the sons as humans, Israelites.

IOW there have been multiple attempts to rehabilitate the text. In the end, the edits contributed to a new Christology which ironically almost mirrored the original polytheistic form.

The Samaritan Pentateuch edits evens more aggressively, dropping the whole line:

Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.

121

PRESIDENTIAL predictions...let the prognosticators have their say!

by Terry in

jw
friends

my only prowess in making predictions stems from my 77-years of life in the united statesgrowing up under president truman, eisenhower, kennedy, nixon, .....etc.

etc.i was a widdle kid sitting in front of a tiny black and white tv set when the very first broadcastsof political conventions, deal-making, debates (nixon vs kennedy), assassinations (jfk, rfk, martin luther king, etc.

) i grew up with duck and cover under my elementary schooldesk, the cold war, the iron curtain, the korean war, the vietnam war and i went to federal prisonas a jw conscientious objector while hippies, flower children, political activists protested and universitystudents were fired up on by troops.i grew up reading newspapers (2 of them).

peacefulpete

He's told the press that he has a personal trainer and gets testosterone injections, (aka steroids). This is stupid. Taking testosterone injections /pills without medical necessity increases serious health risks.

Treating normal aging with testosterone therapy is not advisable. If you don't have a medical condition that's contributing to your decline in testosterone levels, your doctor might suggest natural ways to boost testosterone, such as losing weight and increasing muscle mass through resistance exercise.Testosterone therapy: Potential benefits and risks as you age - Mayo Clinic

Testosterone therapy has various risks, including:
Worsening sleep apnea — a potentially serious sleep disorder in which breathing repeatedly stops and starts.
Causing acne or other skin reactions.
Stimulating noncancerous growth of the prostate (benign prostatic hyperplasia) and growth of existing prostate cancer.
Enlarging breasts.
Limiting sperm production or causing testicles to shrink.
Stimulating too much red blood cell production, which contributes to the increased risk of forming a blood clot. A clot could break loose, travel through your bloodstream and lodge in your lungs, blocking blood flow (pulmonary embolism).

Also, some research shows that testosterone therapy can increase your risk of heart disease.

121

PRESIDENTIAL predictions...let the prognosticators have their say!

by Terry in

jw
friends

my only prowess in making predictions stems from my 77-years of life in the united statesgrowing up under president truman, eisenhower, kennedy, nixon, .....etc.

etc.i was a widdle kid sitting in front of a tiny black and white tv set when the very first broadcastsof political conventions, deal-making, debates (nixon vs kennedy), assassinations (jfk, rfk, martin luther king, etc.

) i grew up with duck and cover under my elementary schooldesk, the cold war, the iron curtain, the korean war, the vietnam war and i went to federal prisonas a jw conscientious objector while hippies, flower children, political activists protested and universitystudents were fired up on by troops.i grew up reading newspapers (2 of them).

peacefulpete

If the people of Wisconsin are paying attention their Democrat Governor has done a tremendous job balancing the budget and even lowering property taxes. Unfortunately, there is so much misinformation and spin I doubt the facts matter to half the population.

Report: Wisconsin's debt is lowest in at least 25 years - WPR

51

Searching

by Striker in

jude 1:9 (kjv) yet michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, the lord rebuke thee.. matthew 4:10 (kjv) then saith jesus unto him, get thee hence, satan: for it is written, thou shalt worship the lord thy god, and him only shalt thou serve.

.

.....my understanding is that you all believe jesus is michael the archangel....... the two verses above describe two different personalities..... the archangel in jude rebuked satan in the name of the father, because he knew it was not his place to rebuke him, he knew that he didn't have the authority to do so, that the only person who possesses this authority is god himself.... while jesus, in matthew 4:10, does not need to invoke the name of the father to rebuke satan, because the father and jesus are one, not michael and jesus..... .... because michael the archangel is not jesus christ our savior.....

peacefulpete

Comparing LXX translations (Tigray's, Wever's and Benton') suggests variants in the Greek versions.

Tigray's translation:

"O heavens, rejoice with Him Bow to Him, all sons of the divine. 22 O nations, rejoice with His people And let all angels of the divine strengthen themselves in Him."

Wever's (NETS) translation:

Be glad oh skies with him and let all the divine sons do obeisance to him. Be glad oh nations with his people and let all the angels of God prevail for him.

Now note the changes reflected in Brenton's.

Brenton's translation: Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him; rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him;

I don't wish to spend too much time on this but the writer of Hebrews either only had at his disposal (or chose the reading) that now is reflected in the Brenton translation. All of this betrays the discomfort some had with this section of Deuteronomy. It seems apparent also that 'sons of God' in verse 43 (as well as vs 8) caused discomfort. Various parallel attempts were made to reinterpret the expression as referring to Israelites or angels.

51

Searching

by Striker in

jude 1:9 (kjv) yet michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, the lord rebuke thee.. matthew 4:10 (kjv) then saith jesus unto him, get thee hence, satan: for it is written, thou shalt worship the lord thy god, and him only shalt thou serve.

.

.....my understanding is that you all believe jesus is michael the archangel....... the two verses above describe two different personalities..... the archangel in jude rebuked satan in the name of the father, because he knew it was not his place to rebuke him, he knew that he didn't have the authority to do so, that the only person who possesses this authority is god himself.... while jesus, in matthew 4:10, does not need to invoke the name of the father to rebuke satan, because the father and jesus are one, not michael and jesus..... .... because michael the archangel is not jesus christ our savior.....

peacefulpete

I should have added that the LXX's unique translating also has Yahweh addressed as an 'angel' of the Most High.

8 When the Most High divided the nations, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the nations according to the number of the angels of God.

9 And his people Jacob became the portion of the Lord, Israel was the line of his inheritance.

Deuteronomy 32 - LXX - Bible Study Tools

51

Searching

by Striker in

jude 1:9 (kjv) yet michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, the lord rebuke thee.. matthew 4:10 (kjv) then saith jesus unto him, get thee hence, satan: for it is written, thou shalt worship the lord thy god, and him only shalt thou serve.

.

.....my understanding is that you all believe jesus is michael the archangel....... the two verses above describe two different personalities..... the archangel in jude rebuked satan in the name of the father, because he knew it was not his place to rebuke him, he knew that he didn't have the authority to do so, that the only person who possesses this authority is god himself.... while jesus, in matthew 4:10, does not need to invoke the name of the father to rebuke satan, because the father and jesus are one, not michael and jesus..... .... because michael the archangel is not jesus christ our savior.....

peacefulpete

And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”
Heb 1:6

This is an interesting example of the writer of Hebrews freely identifying Yahweh with Jesus. The quote is from the LXX Deut 32:43 (also reflected in DDS 4Q44 which uses "Divine Ones rather than angels. It was edited out in the MT) and follows vv. 8,9 where the Lord (Yahweh in MT) is apportioned the Land of Israel from the Most High. There is no reference to another figure, the verse is about Yahweh. The writer of Hebrews clearly identified Jesus the son of God as the manifestation of Yahweh the son of the Most High.

Again, this is another stage of the development and may not reflect the intent or usage of any other authors.

51

Searching

by Striker in

jude 1:9 (kjv) yet michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, the lord rebuke thee.. matthew 4:10 (kjv) then saith jesus unto him, get thee hence, satan: for it is written, thou shalt worship the lord thy god, and him only shalt thou serve.

.

.....my understanding is that you all believe jesus is michael the archangel....... the two verses above describe two different personalities..... the archangel in jude rebuked satan in the name of the father, because he knew it was not his place to rebuke him, he knew that he didn't have the authority to do so, that the only person who possesses this authority is god himself.... while jesus, in matthew 4:10, does not need to invoke the name of the father to rebuke satan, because the father and jesus are one, not michael and jesus..... .... because michael the archangel is not jesus christ our savior.....

peacefulpete

Remember, Revelation is a collection of Jewish apocalyptic works redacted and reframed by a Christian. This was done in other Jewish apocalyptic works as well, so this is not unusual. This explains the nonlinear and repetitive narrative. There are not two battles nor are all the nations gathered for war and defeated twice, these are stand-alone scenes using slightly different imagery, in one the Logos is a Lamb in another he is a lion, in another a mighty angel, in another Michael. (reading a single artificially divided chapter sometimes has the Logos shift personas multiple times). The Christian reuse of this material, (with segue and framing interpolations) reveals that he understood his Jesus Christ as the primary actor in all of them. This Christ is the also the Alpha and Omega and is equaled to the God Almighty, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords (Dan 2:47) in eternal glory and power, because he is the Logos/Wisdom/Son of God hence actually a projection of God.

51

Searching

by Striker in

jude 1:9 (kjv) yet michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, the lord rebuke thee.. matthew 4:10 (kjv) then saith jesus unto him, get thee hence, satan: for it is written, thou shalt worship the lord thy god, and him only shalt thou serve.

.

.....my understanding is that you all believe jesus is michael the archangel....... the two verses above describe two different personalities..... the archangel in jude rebuked satan in the name of the father, because he knew it was not his place to rebuke him, he knew that he didn't have the authority to do so, that the only person who possesses this authority is god himself.... while jesus, in matthew 4:10, does not need to invoke the name of the father to rebuke satan, because the father and jesus are one, not michael and jesus..... .... because michael the archangel is not jesus christ our savior.....

peacefulpete

To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the ruling power forever and ever.”

So who receives the "blessing and the honor and the glory and the ruling power forever and ever."?

Are they not described collectively as if the lamb is an emanation of God?

121

PRESIDENTIAL predictions...let the prognosticators have their say!

by Terry in

jw
friends

my only prowess in making predictions stems from my 77-years of life in the united statesgrowing up under president truman, eisenhower, kennedy, nixon, .....etc.

etc.i was a widdle kid sitting in front of a tiny black and white tv set when the very first broadcastsof political conventions, deal-making, debates (nixon vs kennedy), assassinations (jfk, rfk, martin luther king, etc.

) i grew up with duck and cover under my elementary schooldesk, the cold war, the iron curtain, the korean war, the vietnam war and i went to federal prisonas a jw conscientious objector while hippies, flower children, political activists protested and universitystudents were fired up on by troops.i grew up reading newspapers (2 of them).

peacefulpete

Harris will win but again the Trump camp will test the system by threats of violence and captured judicial oversight. Years of embarrassing shame on the American image will further erode the democratic ideal. If Trump does win, Harris will concede, and Biden will peacefully transfer power. The rest of the first world will shake their heads in disbelief and mock American credulity and embrace of hate. The markets will become unstable. Interest rates will rise as will inflation. We will get through it.

51

Searching

by Striker in

jude 1:9 (kjv) yet michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, the lord rebuke thee.. matthew 4:10 (kjv) then saith jesus unto him, get thee hence, satan: for it is written, thou shalt worship the lord thy god, and him only shalt thou serve.

.

.....my understanding is that you all believe jesus is michael the archangel....... the two verses above describe two different personalities..... the archangel in jude rebuked satan in the name of the father, because he knew it was not his place to rebuke him, he knew that he didn't have the authority to do so, that the only person who possesses this authority is god himself.... while jesus, in matthew 4:10, does not need to invoke the name of the father to rebuke satan, because the father and jesus are one, not michael and jesus..... .... because michael the archangel is not jesus christ our savior.....

peacefulpete

If Jehovah is the 'son of man', who is the 'Ancient of Days/that One'?

The God Almighty, Most High. There was a genuine difference between camps of scribes. Some saw Yahweh as an emanation/agent/son of El Most High while some like 2nd Isaiah and a couple Psalm writers combined the two. These two ideas appear to have been in tension in the 5th century forward. It seems an idea only recently becoming popularized. Most research assumes the Most High's delegation of Israel to Yahweh in Deut 32 reflects a very early form that somehow escaped the editors. It might rather actually reflect a later theological development (or possibly preserved with that new interpretation), where the Most High is far too transcendent to interact directly with material things and He uses the agency of a Logos/Son.

It is important to realize that not every writer shared this concept in identical ways. IOW, the writer describing Logos may not have had in mind all the other names/terms used by other writers in different contexts. Each pericope was meant to be understood in its own context. I'm not therefore sure we should assume the writer of Dan 7 understood Yahweh as identical with the SofM/Michael.

It gets messy. Daniel is a composite work made up of centuries old stories combined with apocalyptic elements from the Maccabean period. It also went through some editing in the years following. Notice in chapt 9, the only section that mentions 'Yahweh', and how even in this section the use is inconsistent. It's difficult to understand the motives but it would seem some editing is involved. IOW, did the writer of the apocalyptic sections (or even just chapt 9) use the tetragrammaton (my/our God YHWH) of not? If so, did he differentiate him from the 'Most High' the expression in Chapts 3,4,5 or the 'God of heaven', 'Lord of Kings' and 'God of Gods' in chapt 2 or 'Ancient of Days' in 7?