Posts by peacefulpete

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

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colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

Here's another example of the extreme personification of the Logos/Word from the Wisdom of Solomon describing the Word as the Destroyer in the Exodus 12 story. The original reads:

12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt that night, and I will smite all the first-born in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and on all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments: I am the Lord. ..23 For the Lord will pass through to slay the Egyptians; and when he sees the blood on the lintel and on the two doorposts, the Lord will pass over the door, and will not allow the Destroyer to enter your houses to slay you.

Notice how the text repeated says the Lord would do the slaying until the insertion of 'the Destroyer'. Clearly some scribal sensitivities motivated the introduction of an agent of the Lord who, as it now reads, is effectively addressed as the Lord.

The Wisdom of Solomon describing this story reads: 18:14

...when their firstborn were destroyed, they acknowledged your people to be God’s child. .For while gentle silence enveloped all things, and night in its swift course was now half gone,15 your all-powerful Word leapt from heaven, from the royal throne, into the midst of the land that was doomed, a stern warrior 16 carrying the sharp sword of your authentic command,
and stood and filled all things with death, and touched heaven while standing on the earth.

The Destroyer/Lord is now referred to as the all-powerful Word who comes from the 'royal throne'.

The description of the Word as immense spanning from heaven to the earth is reminiscent of the 2 Chron 21 story of the Angel of the Lord sent to destroy Jerusalem with a sword:

15 And God sent an angel to destroy Jerusalem. But as the angel was doing so, the Lord saw it and relented concerning the disaster and said to the angel who was destroying the people, “Enough! Withdraw your hand.” The Angel of the Lord was then standing at the threshing floor of Araunah[b] the Jebusite. 16 David looked up and saw the Angel of the Lord standing between heaven and earth, with a drawn sword in his hand extended over Jerusalem.

This also reminds us of the immense Mighty Angel in Rev 10 and various other apocalyptic works of the period.

Anyway, the Wisdom of Solomon passage demonstrates the concept of the Logos/Word acting as an agent of the Lord but also equated with the Lord. This is Logos theology.

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

Not sure who you are arguing with. "it all changed...fully revealed"

That which was conceived by early Yahwists was eventually 'all changed' and was explained as gradual progressive 'revelation'.

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

Seabreeze...???? You are suggesting the ancient Yahwists knew God the same way Jesus worshippers do? Of course not. What you define as 'progressive revelation' is theology speak for an 'evolving' nature and character.

Surely you would agree that the God who dwelt in stones from the ground was conceived of very differently from the one who was said to be so transcendent he never left heaven.

46

What makes a cult (in the pejorative sense)?

by Vanderhoven7 in

michael moore writes:.

a cult is an organization that enslaves minds and destroys families using cult mind control.

cult mind control involves orchestrated deception, social pressure, psychological abuse, and repetitive indoctrination (brainwashing) centering around an unchallengeable ideology enforced in a totalitarian way in a closed socially-separatist community setting.

peacefulpete

... are you telling me that we shouldn't disfellowship pedophiles, unrepentant adulterers or willful thieves? I consider it completely just that a pedophile is removed from the congregation. And yes that person has 'reaped what they sowed'.

You're being deliberately obtuse....I don't give a crap if my sister screws up her marriage. People do stuff like that, some more than others. She is always welcome at my house.

And if someone has a personality or behavior so unpleasant I don't wish to be around them, it's up to me to decide how to deal with it.

Churches have every right to determine who is a member of their club. They don't have a right to decide for me how I interact with them on a personal basis. That is what labels the JWs a high control sect or cult.

Your use of the term, 'unrepentant' suggests your heart is still, after all these years, sold on the idea of judging others in personal matters. My life, and mine only, is for me to direct, not that of others.

46

What makes a cult (in the pejorative sense)?

by Vanderhoven7 in

michael moore writes:.

a cult is an organization that enslaves minds and destroys families using cult mind control.

cult mind control involves orchestrated deception, social pressure, psychological abuse, and repetitive indoctrination (brainwashing) centering around an unchallengeable ideology enforced in a totalitarian way in a closed socially-separatist community setting.

peacefulpete

No zombie...The notion that people whose behavior is not up to a group's standard or have different religious beliefs should be separated from friends and family, is sickening. Your suggestion that they 'reaped what they sowed' is more than disturbing. The church's controls are not just in its dictation of morality; its controls dictate family relationships, friendships and self-worth. For every person that has left or been expelled a dozen others' lives were affected, in many cases in profound ways, parents losing children, and children losing parents for examples. I don't know your experience, but millions of people carry scars that last for lifetimes. My family included.

As regards the label 'cult'. Use it if you feel it fits, many do. Some feel the church is no more harmful than others, such as the Mormons or Pentecostals. That may be true. Then go read posts about the pain and damaged lives those churches inflicted. No, these churches do not drink poison kool aid, but they do ruin lives and are responsible for many suicides.

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

If articulation of the nature of god is too complex for human minds, why do you insist on your point of view being the correct one? You are admitting that no one can understand it.
Maybe the complexity of the trinity arises because it makes no logical sense.

Your comment is quite reasonable. Religion is not supposed to be completely logical. There must always be some mystery, some counterintuitive aspect for the faith to stand apart from the mundane/profane. The degree of acceptable mystery has varied over time and culture. In this example, Christian theologians inherited tradition, terminology and metaphor that were merged into a single figure. That required new theological definitions. Son, doesn't mean what it means for humans, for example.

As we come from a faith spawned in the 'Rationalist Movement' we have little taste for mystery. Our beliefs were framed in a more concrete, seemingly rational way. To do that however, the framers of this religion ignored scores of passages that didn't fit the model. They created a new God, a God that fit 19th century standards, a God that never existed before. A God our minds could embrace. Understanding ancient theology requires a paradigm shift for us, acceptance of mystery and the irrational.

The theologians that framed the Trinity doctrine, had done the same, they created a new deity that had never been conceived in precisely the same way before. They however, selected different texts to emphasize, those that focused upon the deity of Christ. They did however embrace the mystery in a way many 19th century readers could not.

In the end neither model accurately represented the texts. That is because the texts reveal an evolving character, not a singular nature or personality.

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

My involvement on this thread and others has been to demonstrate the stages of theological development. The Trinity was not the result of divine 'revelation' nor was it a shocking pagan deviation from Jewish thought. No, it was neither. Jewish conceptions of God had for centuries included ideas that God was not alone. In some sense God had partners in his activity, partners that bridged the material word for him, in some cases partners that were actually God themselves. The sophistication of this idea reached new heights under the Alexandrian school represented by Philo. This is the same community that created the LXX.

When the sect that became called Christianity declared that this 'partner' in God's works had come to earth and died, they were creating a new arrangement to an old tune.

Joey....The paradox you are describing is not unique to the Trinity Doctrine. As I just tried to show, the same seemingly contradictory language was within Philo's work. The Logos was God, the Logos was the creator, and at the same time the Logos owed his existence to the Father and the Logos expressed adoration for the Father of all. Natural language fails to convey what Philo was trying to describe, so he, like the later Christian theologians, resort to apophatic language. For both parties it was deemed easier to understand the Logos in terms of what it was not. It was not like us, it was not a relationship like anything or anyone else. It is not logical; it is 'obscure' 'similitudes and images'.

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

aqwsed.....I thought I was clear. Philo in various places described the Logos as God in action, as the firstborn Son, as the creator of all things, (hence not part of creation) uncreated but not in the same sense as his Father. This mirrors later efforts to define Jesus as 'begotten not made'. Again, I'm not suggesting Philo anachronistically invented or believed the Trinity doctrine, merely that his own similar perspective necessitated a similar apophatic approach.

I really have no interest in judging 'scriptural support' only in learning and sharing how readers interpreted their religious writings.

22

Memory hole, international conspiracy, and the JW international network

by slimboyfat in

can anyone else who was around 15 to 20 years ago remember an odd story about jw missionaries being stopped at the swiss/italian border with american bonds worth billions of dollars in their possession?

because i can find little to no information about it anywhere online, yet at the time i am sure i recall it being reported by different mainstream news sources, including the bbc.

why do some news stories seem to disappear from the internet altogether?

peacefulpete

The JW church has grown through aggressive proselytism/marketing and resisted schisms through hierarchically directed aggressive shunning, this has resulted in the demographics you seem to be lauding.

There is no doubt this formula has been successful. Their recent adoption of colorful modern media and internet will likely offset the hard work of many concerned, abused former members and fact checkers.

22

Memory hole, international conspiracy, and the JW international network

by slimboyfat in

can anyone else who was around 15 to 20 years ago remember an odd story about jw missionaries being stopped at the swiss/italian border with american bonds worth billions of dollars in their possession?

because i can find little to no information about it anywhere online, yet at the time i am sure i recall it being reported by different mainstream news sources, including the bbc.

why do some news stories seem to disappear from the internet altogether?

peacefulpete

The Ethiopian-Eritrean Evangelical Church has16 million members. The Armenian Apostolic Church has 9 million. So I guess you can say the JWs influence lies somewhere between the Armenian Apostolic Church and the Ethiopian-Eritrean Church.