Posts by peacefulpete

22

Is the Watchtower Ultimately a Creation of Fallen Angels?

by Sea Breeze in

a watchtower in ceremonial magical tradition is a tutelary spirit of one of the four cardinal points or quarters (east, south, west and north).

in many magical traditions, they are understood to be enochian angels... originating with the enochian tradition of john dee, a version of it was popularized by the hermetic order of the golden dawn, which became hugely influential in modern western esotericism, including wicca.

the watchtowers are invoked during the ritual of casting a magic circle.. .

peacefulpete

Revelatory religion is to occultism what Pepsi is to Coke.

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

That might be a very good question if it hadn't already been answered many times. I'd need to see pretty much the opposite of what we have in this case. Proof of exitance, clarity of message, originality of storyline, and absence of contradiction. Instead, we find a message filled with Pharisaic style parable and reused topoi, typological reinterpretation of the OT, a theology with uncanny resemblance to late second temple era apocalypticism and contemporary mystery cults. The supposed foundational texts themselves are filled with sectarian emendation and expansion. Given all that, it is not surprising we have 500 years of rivalry and power struggle before anything resembling a consensus is drawn.

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

SeaBreeze, ...you and aqwsed have eruditely and thoroughly refuted the JW angelology/christology. I agree with your conclusion that all ancient witnesses shared some type of belief that Christ was God.

However, it is also true that none of the ancient witnesses shared an identical formulation of that belief, and that even the texts favored by the proto-orthodoxy likewise betray a confusing blend of subordinationism and divinity. As I said, it is self-evident that the ambiguity of the Gospels stories were the very source of many of the divisions.

I am also certain the Logos/second power concept is an overlooked foundation of Christianity and the key to understanding Pauline and Gospel descriptions, and I don't think that is terribly surprising or controversial.

While naturally Christians might prefer a supernatural spontaneous origin, the actual evidence shows a very human story of developing theology centuries in the making.

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

The whole debate is the result of third or 4th generation (of mostly Gentile) 'Christians' mistaking Gospel narratives as history. Once they went down that path, controversy exploded. Various rationalizations emerged, varying forms of Docetism, Adoptionism and Dyophysitism (and 50 other isms) each offered alternatives for how an ineffable God could also be a man. All of these forms however referred to 'Christ' as God. Even the Arianism that JWs like to point at understood Christ, as Logos, as an emanation of God. Writers like Eusebius often resorted to semantics and even red herring arguments to misrepresent that belief, but that is the nature of sectarianism.

The Second Power concept and the related Logos theology is the keystone to all of this.

Marcionism for example seems a radical departure, but it wasn't really. The central distinction between Marcion's view and Justin Martyr's was the roles assigned the High God and his emanations, Yahweh and Christ. Almost all the theological detail is lost to us, as all we have are snippets from his detractors. However, in the end Marcion too, thought of 'Christ' as God in a sense similar to Justin, or Tatian, or Valentinus, or Eusebius or the author of John. None of these writers agreed in detail but they were all attempting to make sense of the idea of God becoming man.

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

edit

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

Dismissing 2nd century extrabiblical evidence that passed though 4th century hands, has a certain logic, but given that the biblical texts that started all this debate have the very same history, doing so sounds rather prejudicial.

The only way to formulate an objective modern opinion is to understand the ancient issues and players. Tatian, was according to ancient sources, an Adoptionist (nontrinitarian). Adoptionism was a very clever theological solution to what were perceived as logical contradictions. The brilliant solution was that Jesus was a man adopted by God through the Logos aka holy spirit possessing him at his baptism. So, by this Christology, Jesus the man was not God, but the Logos inhabiting him was, brilliant.

Effectively it (and Docetism and many other theories) was Logos theology struggling to literalize the Gospel stories that 'fleshed out' the earlier conceptions of Christ. It was not the only solution offered of course, and passions raged between them.

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

The Diatessaron harmony of the Gospels reads:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God is the Word. This was in the beginning with God. Everything was by his hand, and without him not even one existing thing was made. In him was life, and the life is the light of men. And the light shineth in the darkness, and the darkness apprehended it not.

Now you guys can argue about that for a while.

3

Baptism on Fire

by peacefulpete in

going through justin martyr's dialogue with trypho yesterday, i found a variation on the baptism scene :.

88. and let this be a proof to you, namely, what i told you was done by the magi from arabia, who as soon as the child was born came to worship him, for even at his birth he was in possession of his power; and as he grew up like all other men, by using the fitting means, he assigned its own [requirements] to each development, and was sustained by all kinds of nourishment, and waited for thirty years, more or less, until john appeared before him as the herald of his approach, and preceded him in the way of baptism, as i have already shown.

and then, when jesus had gone to the river jordan, where john was baptizing, and when he had stepped into the water, a fire was kindled in the jordan; and when he came out of the water, the holy ghost lighted on him like a dove, [as] the apostles of this very christ of ours wrote.

peacefulpete

TofG.....Light and fire as universal topoi for knowledge, purity, goodness and by association deity, are as old as man.

I find the literary nature of these stories fascinating. there was an active free creative process in those early years. I.e. until institutional conformity froze certain versions of the legends into canon.

The recurring reuse of motif and metaphor is another aspect of this. Fire/water, Light/dark, Crop sowing/harvesting, tree fertility/barrenness, water flowing/parting. spirit/bird wings etc. Leolaia did a neat thread years ago demonstrating how parables were reused as narrative and narrative as parable, they were two sides of the same coin.

Jesus and the Fig Tree.

In this case a corollary use of the imagery is seen in Matt 3:11 where this revisor of Mark takes the line, "I have been baptizing with water, he will baptize you with holy spirit" and adds "and fire". This then serves as segue for another parable featuring fire as a method of cleansing the threshing floor. Luke follows that pattern. It's impossible to say if there is a direct link between Matt's baptism with 'fire' and the baptism scene accompanied by fire but they come from the same milieu of popular topoi.

3

Baptism on Fire

by peacefulpete in

going through justin martyr's dialogue with trypho yesterday, i found a variation on the baptism scene :.

88. and let this be a proof to you, namely, what i told you was done by the magi from arabia, who as soon as the child was born came to worship him, for even at his birth he was in possession of his power; and as he grew up like all other men, by using the fitting means, he assigned its own [requirements] to each development, and was sustained by all kinds of nourishment, and waited for thirty years, more or less, until john appeared before him as the herald of his approach, and preceded him in the way of baptism, as i have already shown.

and then, when jesus had gone to the river jordan, where john was baptizing, and when he had stepped into the water, a fire was kindled in the jordan; and when he came out of the water, the holy ghost lighted on him like a dove, [as] the apostles of this very christ of ours wrote.

peacefulpete

Going through Justin Martyr's Dialogue with Trypho yesterday, I found a variation on the baptism scene :

88. And let this be a proof to you, namely, what I told you was done by the Magi from Arabia, who as soon as the Child was born came to worship Him, for even at His birth He was in possession of His power; and as He grew up like all other men, by using the fitting means, He assigned its own [requirements] to each development, and was sustained by all kinds of nourishment, and w
aited for thirty years, more or less, until John appeared before Him as the herald of His approach, and preceded Him in the way of baptism, as I have already shown. And then, when Jesus had gone to the river Jordan, where John was baptizing, and when He had stepped into the water, a fire was kindled in the Jordan; and when He came out of the water, the Holy Ghost lighted on Him like a dove, [as] the apostles of this very Christ of ours wrote.

Justin's baptism scene is certainly more exciting than the usual Canonical version. A little digging online revealed similar traditions were evidenced from the 2nd century and continued for centuries.

A 6th century hymn on the Epiphany by Romanos Melodos, XVI.14.7-10

"and fire in the Jordan shining"

Ephrem's commentary on the Diatessaron and Ishodad of Merv both declared that in an early version of the Diatessaron the words appeared:

"... light shone forth, and over the Jordan was spread a vail of white clouds, and there appeared many hosts of spiritual beings who were praising God in the air; and quietly Jordan stood still from its flowing, its waters being at rest; and a sweet odor was wafted from thence.

Kerygma Pauli (Preachings of Paul) "...when he was baptized, fire appeared upon the water."

The 3 century "De rebaptismate" describes a group of Christians who included fire in their baptism ceremony following the above Kerygma Pauli.

The Gospel of the Ebionites: "and immediately a great light shone around the place"

Gregory of Antioch (6th CE) notes the fire on the Jordan in his Homilia in S. Theophania.

And two Old Latin mss (ita vgms) of Matthew 13:

And when Jesus was being baptized a great light flashed (a tremendous light flashed around) from the water, so that all who had gathered there were afraid

There are apparently many more examples.

Obviously, the symbolism of light and fire are in play.

10

Pella

by peacefulpete in

this short thread addresses the often-repeated legend that christians fled jerusalem to pella and escaped the destruction of jerusalem.

the legend is based upon two 4th century comments.. .

the whole body, however, of the church at jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city to a certain town beyond the jordan called pella.

peacefulpete

I'm learning all the time. I'm coming to conclude that the 'Memoires of the Apostles' Justin refers to, to be an early harmonization, not a fragmentary collection as B. Ehrman holds. Interestingly leolaia 20 years ago mentioned as much in a thread. It illustrates the popularity of the idea of a singular harmonization very early. His student Tatian of course famously produced the Diatessaron that served as the Gospel for the Syrian Church for hundreds of years. How much he followed the 'memoires' is unknown. This complicates the idea that the Mark,Matt,Luke order for my hypothesis regarding an addition to Mark 13. It would seem either Justin simply forgot the Jesuine prophecy, it was not included in the Memoirs, or the addition was added individually to the 3 in an increasing expansion. That last option seems very unlikely.****

So, I have to suggest either Justin somehow simply forgot the prophecy, or it was not in his 'harmonization' for some reason that I can't imagine. I still believe the prediction of the fall of the Temple and Jerusalem are secondary to the flow in Mark. As it creates awkward reading and has confused readers for 1900 years. The writers of Matt and Luke simply followed suit, adding their own touches.

****This also assumes the present form of Justin's works is original and the quotations/paraphrases of the Gospels are original.