Posts by peacefulpete

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

https://tenor.com/view/jim-carrey-dumb-and-dumber-la-la-la-i-cant-hear-you-gif-12096113">

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

Hart himself would better fit the label of Christian Mystic. His God is arrived at through:

....infused contemplation, with real constancy of will and a patient openness to grace, suffering states of both dereliction and ecstasy with the equanimity of faith, hoping but not presuming, so as to find whether the spiritual journey, when followed in earnest, can disclose its own truthfulness…

Being in this state of mind, he is more open to the earliest character of Christianity. A rare sort of Christian today. I therefore understand his attraction to the more mystic Eastern Orthodox church, but technically he doesn't parrot their Christology either.

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

For one thing, the term logos really had, by the time the Gospel was written, acquired a metaphysical significance that “Word” cannot possibly convey; and in places like Alexandria it had acquired a very particular religious significance as well.
For the Hellenistic Jewish philosopher Philo, for instance, it referred to a kind of “secondary divinity,” a mediating principle standing between God the Most High and creation. In late antiquity it was assumed widely, in pagan, Jewish, and Christian circles, that God in his full transcendence did not come into direct contact with the world of limited and mutable things, and so had expressed himself in a subordinate and economically “reduced” form “through whom” (δι᾽ αὐτοῦ [di’ avtou]) he created and governed the world. It was this Logos that many Jews and Christians believed to be the subject of all the divine theophanies of Hebrew scripture.

Come on guys, he is laying out exactly what I've been saying. This is not the Trinity nor is it the WT.

The later Arianism, as I understand it, was much closer to second power theology. Arian asserted that Logos was God as a somewhat limited aspect of God. IMO the sole distinction is that for Arian (and all proto-orthodox Christians by then) the Logos had acquired complete humanity as well as autonomy and entity. How closely this reflects the Johannine prologue is a matter of question depending upon the degree of temporality/historicity intended by the Gospel writer/s.

12

JW Vaccine mandate: The contrast between voices of reason and confusion

by ukpimo in

i was reading an intriguing post on the exjw reddit, a forum i do not with to sign up for, as i'm not interested in the internal politics of reddit.

https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/1hwlja8/the_governing_bodys_letter_that_shook_bethel_and/.

another post counteracted this one, driven by the "conspiracy theory" card.

peacefulpete

deleted

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

Not sure if you still want to engage Kaleb but regarding the evolution of the Devil/Satan figure, your objection to my comment seems to be in the suggestion that some Jewish circles had included a rebellious angel element in the concept. I'm not as fully read on the topic as I'd like but the Enochic tradition certainly included the idea of rebellious angels and a leader called Satanail, and the Tobit story with its Ashmedai prince of the demons sound very much like the Devil figure in the NT. The Ezekiel 28 Protective cherub that became wicked and the falling star of Isaiah 14 were connected in late nonrabbinic Judaism. Again, I go back to the Gospel and Revelation themselves, the descriptions of the Devil within are not presented as if a new revelation, the readers are assumed to be aware of the characters, it's the action that is the focus. Paul's (and G,John's) use of archon suggests some connection to early Gnostic ideation. That really is not controversial. I think it demonstrates the composite character of the tradition of Satan. I hesitated to include the Jewish Mysticism traditions but they often featured the 'Samael' Great Demon as a live character of rebellion. Probably only secondarily connected but in some Gnostic traditions the Devil was actually an earlier son of God than Christ. The whole idea of losing great position and rank by rebellion runs through much of these traditions.

Specifically what part of my comments are incorrect? I post some speculative stuff to be sure, but it is always with the motive of brainstorming with more experienced posters. Be free to respond to error without concern for my feelings. I consider myself lucky to have had your ear.

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

Well Kaleb lets agree that from among Jews that had adapted to Hellenism, Christianity arose.

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

Since the Hellenistic period was so short lived in Judaism, ....Judaism had a very brief Hellenistic period

But yet both of you have said that period was at least 300 years of cultural/political dominance and Hellenization. We all know it was much longer, but even at 300 years, that is hardly a brief/short period.

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

Considering how quickly you put that together, I agree with most of it. There was an evolution of Satan from early to late Judaism to early Christianity to Catholicism. The same is true of the Logos concept.

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

Philippians 2:6-11 explicitly describes Christ as existing in the morphē of God, a phrase that emphasizes His preexistent divine nature,

Yep. That is why Philo called Logos, God and creator and image of God and High Priest and Son and Light and eyes of God etc.

This is not the language of an emanation or a subordinate being but of one who shares fully in the divine essence.

An emanation is by definition a sharer in divine essence.

Philo's Logos functions more as an intermediary or instrument of creation, not as a fully animate being or a divine person in the Trinitarian sense.

You have repeated that line many times now. I agree. Of course, Philo did not have any Trinity doctrine in mind, neither did Paul et al. What I have said in reply is the transition from anthropomorphized emanation to being is already in evidence in Pre-Christian works and Philo. It is my position that the earliest Christians themselves walked that line. Christ was a revelation drawn from OT texts seen through the lens of Hellenized Judaism. He was believed as real as the God he came from. But it was the later generation stories that followed that really cemented the image of a guy walking around Palestine. Did the writer of Mark intend that, I personally don't think so. I believe it was a dramatization of a Christian message of separation from Judaism. Others followed suit, expanding this persona with additional logia (as Hart put it), more fully fleshing out the character.

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

Regarding Phil 2, the message is that the Christ serves as a divine model of humility. That unlike the demiurge Yahweh of Marcionism, or the chief Archon in Gnosticism, he did not attempt to break from his given role as a servant of the Godhead. He voided himself and took the likeness of man. Understood in terms of an emanation of God, the passage makes perfect sense.

The lines between an extremely anthropomorphic emanation and a fully animate being have been crossed. Even in Philo's logos we sense an identity emerging, Ben Sira has the figure of Wisdom sitting of the throne on the mountaintop which sounds more like a person than a thing.

Christians were not therefore the first to have made this leap. Going back to the Neoplatonic concept of Emanationism, all things emanated from the Principle/Godhead. It was the objective of all to pursue a reconnection with that Principle, but many actively opposed it.

In Jewish Hellenism that included the concept of Satan. What was initially thought of as a servant of God, the accuser, in the heavenly court, morphed into a figure of rebellion. The chief archon was held to be such a figure in Gnostic circles and the ideas converged.

Eph 2:2 :As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the archon of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

The Pauline writer in Philippians might well be drawing a contrast between the Archon of this world and his idea of Christ. Both were emanations of God, one did not seek more than his given role, the other did.