Posts by peacefulpete

26

Jesus the Maintenance Man

by peacefulpete in

i posted on another thread what i thought was an interesting angle, seldom discussed regarding the role of god/logos in holding creation together and its maintenance.

most moderns think of the universe as a self-perpetuating machine, but ancients looked to the god/s to ensure order continued and fertility returned year after year.

we read, throughout the ot, of jews performing prescribed ritual and festivals to ensure god's blessing and providence.

Why do you feel I am anything but fascinated with the Jewish culture and history? How else am I to learn other than reading and discussing it? This is a discussion forum after all. If you see me making a factual error, then correct it using sources I can read and learn from. I do believe our coming from different perspectives is an opportunity for both of us. My own research for the past 25 years is likely to have included things you may not have encountered. I'm sorry if that sounds condescending because that is not where it is coming from.

I'll remind you of your wise comments about JWs not thinking for themselves or developing deeper perception. If I just take your word at things, how am I growing?

A last thought. If I disagree with you on a matter of history I am not disagreeing with all Jews. You have repeatedly emphasized there never was, nor is there, a consensus on many matters of interpretation and practice.

26

Jesus the Maintenance Man

by peacefulpete in

i posted on another thread what i thought was an interesting angle, seldom discussed regarding the role of god/logos in holding creation together and its maintenance.

most moderns think of the universe as a self-perpetuating machine, but ancients looked to the god/s to ensure order continued and fertility returned year after year.

we read, throughout the ot, of jews performing prescribed ritual and festivals to ensure god's blessing and providence.

peacefulpete

It seems Antigonus is notable for a couple things, his Greek name betrays the extent of early Greek influence right around the time of Alexander and his choice to use "heaven' rather than "God" is regarded as a theology of transcendence. (The second translation above is a paraphrase, I noted the difference in the two translations and found a discussion that understood the word choice significant.)

The expression "Heaven" for "God" is the oldest evidence in postexilic Judaism of the development of the idea of a transcendental Deity.

The Jewish Spiritual Heroes, Volume I; The Creators of the Mishna, Antigonos of Socho 3 with Connections ANTIGONUS OF SOKO - JewishEncyclopedia.com

26

Jesus the Maintenance Man

by peacefulpete in

i posted on another thread what i thought was an interesting angle, seldom discussed regarding the role of god/logos in holding creation together and its maintenance.

most moderns think of the universe as a self-perpetuating machine, but ancients looked to the god/s to ensure order continued and fertility returned year after year.

we read, throughout the ot, of jews performing prescribed ritual and festivals to ensure god's blessing and providence.

peacefulpete

I apologize for my tone. I do not however understand your condescension.

Regarding the sole quotation from Antogonos of Socho, every other form I have found words the quote similar to this:

"Be not like servants who serve their master for the sake of reward; rather, be like servants who do not serve their master for the sake of reward, and let the awe of Heaven be upon you" (Artscroll translation).

or

"Be not like slaves who serve their master for their daily rations; be like those who serve their master without regard to emoluments, and let the fear of God be with you."

How does this suggest he did not believe in prayers of invocation?

26

Jesus the Maintenance Man

by peacefulpete in

i posted on another thread what i thought was an interesting angle, seldom discussed regarding the role of god/logos in holding creation together and its maintenance.

most moderns think of the universe as a self-perpetuating machine, but ancients looked to the god/s to ensure order continued and fertility returned year after year.

we read, throughout the ot, of jews performing prescribed ritual and festivals to ensure god's blessing and providence.

peacefulpete

Matther 6 comes from bits and pieces of the Jewish liturgy.

Yes, that is what I said.

....elements in the Lord's Prayer (in all its versions) are perfectly consistent with the Kadish and Amidah.

I do not, like Peacefulpete says, imagine that the Old Testament prayers were some "psychological tools for self help." They meant what they said, in the genre that they were composed, but words mean what they mean. People in the past believed that they talked to deities, not merely worshiped them....He got that very wrong indeed.

I did not say you believed what I said was anachronistic. I said it would be anachronistic to impose a modern Reformed understanding of the value of prayer upon ancient texts. So, we agree. The discussion is about what ancient Jews felt about prayer. As you said they believed they were talking to the deities, and yes that included petitions for sun,rain,food, and security.

Peacefulpete doesn't understand what I mean or comprehend where I come from. He thinks he does.

No, Peacefulpete has no interest in where you come from, he has interest in the evolving nature of ancient religion. At times you have offered valuable input.

Peacefulpete, the Butcher of JWD

405

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

Well since we are being blunt. I was addressing that to SBF and illustrating the logos concept. I was not describing the Trinity. You also seem to just wish to argue, as I made very clear the theological point that God was not diminished by his emanations. Maybe that is how you can type 970 words in less than 9 minutes. You don't read the comment you are responding to.

405

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

Think of the fully developed Logos concept this way. If I break off a piece of my Kit-Kat bar, for the action of sharing,

1. That piece is not the whole bar. The bar is greater than the piece. That piece is not THE Kit-Kat bar, but it is at the same time, Kit-Kat bar.

2. It is also true that, the piece exists because of the bar. Before the piece was broken free, it did not exist.

The biggest difference between the Logos concept and my Kit-Kat bar, is that the bar is finite while God (Most High) was conceived of as infinite. The breaking off a piece diminishes my bar but the Most High was not thought of as diminished through his emanations.

Think deeply about this and you will understand 2000 years of theology.

405

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

He rejects the idea that the Logos is “God most high” in the sense of being the Father but affirms the Logos’ full divinity

Yes, that is correct. That is the very definition of the Logos concept. Logos was God in action/at work in the material world. It/He was not the sum of all of the Most High.

SBF...you are also correct that coeternity/coequality with the Father is not found in the NT or most pre-Nicaean Christianity. Before time, the Most High was without emanations. Most early writers held something much closer to the Logos conception of deity.

26

Jesus the Maintenance Man

by peacefulpete in

i posted on another thread what i thought was an interesting angle, seldom discussed regarding the role of god/logos in holding creation together and its maintenance.

most moderns think of the universe as a self-perpetuating machine, but ancients looked to the god/s to ensure order continued and fertility returned year after year.

we read, throughout the ot, of jews performing prescribed ritual and festivals to ensure god's blessing and providence.

peacefulpete

If trying to recreate the past, it's important to recognize a tendency to retroject modern perspectives upon the ancient. The elements in the Lord's Prayer (in all its versions) are perfectly consistent with the Kadish and Amidah. The Jewish community for whom Matthew was produced did not wish to make a break from the faith they knew. Kaleb's comments represent a welcomed humanist Reformed Judaism. While his/her overlay on the ancient texts is an admirable interpretation, it would be anachronistic to imagine the OT prayers or the ancient Rabbinic prayers for sun,rain,food, security and good health were psychological tools for self-help. It may well be it has that effect on some, while for others it brings feelings of abandonment and disappointment.

26

Jesus the Maintenance Man

by peacefulpete in

i posted on another thread what i thought was an interesting angle, seldom discussed regarding the role of god/logos in holding creation together and its maintenance.

most moderns think of the universe as a self-perpetuating machine, but ancients looked to the god/s to ensure order continued and fertility returned year after year.

we read, throughout the ot, of jews performing prescribed ritual and festivals to ensure god's blessing and providence.

peacefulpete

Shulchan_Arukh%2C_Orach_Chayim.119.1-2 with Connections
If one wanted to add in any of the middle blessings, something similar the blessing, one may add. How so? If one had a sick person, one asks for mercy for [that person] in the blessing of "Refa'einu" ["Heal us"]. If one needs a livelihood, one may ask for it in the "Blessing of the Years". And in [the blessing] of "Shomeya Tefilla" ["Who hears prayers"], one may ask for any of one's needs, for it includes all the requests. Gloss: And when one adds, one should begin the blessing and, after that, add, but one should not add and then begin the blessing (Tur 567). And according to Rabbeinu Yona, when one adds to the blessing something similar to that blessing, if one is adding it on behalf of all of Israel, one says it in plural language and not singular language, and one should only add at the end of the blessing and not the middle. And if one is asking specifically for one's own needs, for example: there is a sick person in one's home or one needs a livelihood, one can ask even in the middle of the blessing, as long as one does so in singular language and not plural language. And in the blessing of "Shomeya Tefilla" and similarly at the end of prayer, either right before "Yihyu l'ratzon" ["May it be acceptable before You"] or after it, one may ask in either singular language or plural language, whether it is specifically for one own needs or for of the public. יש מי שאומר שכשמוסיף בברכה לצורך יחיד לא יאריך: There is one [authority] who says that when one adds to a blessing for one's individual needs, one should not make it lengthy.

405

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

Or aqwsed is God.