Posts by KalebOutWest

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

KalebOutWest

MMM,

You do know I'm a registered Secular Humanist, right?

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

KalebOutWest

MMM,

You also flip-flop like the Governing Body:

"We never said anything about 1975...It was unfaithful people in our midst who came up with that."

Everything you're doing is just another JW trick from their old worn out hat.

Whatever.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

KalebOutWest

MMM sounds like a Watchtower magazine, and everyone else demanding me to pick a side.

It comes from ingrained cult thinking:

Now is not the time to sit on the fence or be lukewarm. Jesus stated
very clearly: “He that is not on my side is against me, and he that does not gather with me scatters.” He also said: “Whoever becomes ashamed of me and of my words, the Son of man will be ashamed of this one when he arrives in his glory and that of the Father and of the holy angels.”—Mt 12:30; Lu 9:26.

--Watchtower April 1, 1991, pp 8-13

I can sit on a fence and keep an opinion to myself or don't have to decide.

I am my own person.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

KalebOutWest

MMM

I'm an atheist. I think I've moved past the WT pretty well.

Remember this comment where you demanded:

Doesn't matter. Pick one.

I don't have to do what you say. This is not the Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses. You aren't the Governing Body. Your words are not law.

Just because you’re an atheist doesn't mean you have moved on.

It's like a Jehovah's Witness claiming:

"I'm Roman Catholic. I'm not dealing with CSA in my religion anymore."

Yeah, right!

Call yourself an apple tree. You still produce Watchtower magazines.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

KalebOutWest

MeanMrMustard

Doesn't matter. Pick one.

nicolaou

Stop being such a smug drama queen.

The truth is you folks are still acting the same way the Jehovah's Witnesses do. You demand I think like you and when I don't you demonize me.

You haven't moved past the Watchtower religion's practices that you criticize. You only do that when it's convenient.

I don't have to choose or think like you or do anything you want.

You are not satisfied with anything. If I say you're right, according to you "I'm a drama queen." If I give an intellectual answer "I'm showing off." If you ask how I know something and demand that I explain myself, and I tell you I am an academic, you claim I am only mentioning going to college so I can "elevate myself above others and make myself sound important."

Except Jeffro, who just checks on mistakes, and we've had a rocky history--it seems others just want me to choose. Jeffro has turned out to be the most sensible on here.

The rest of you--screw you. I don't follow you. You all are nuts.

And wrong.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

KalebOutWest

nicolaou:

If some thug threatens you with death you aren't going to assume they're referring to your old age demise.

But if you "threaten me" it's okay, right?

Equally if someone says you won't die you aren't going to assume they mean you'll never die, that's just ridiculous.

This is a myth. I think it's ridiculous to assume that what anybody says in a myth will ever happen at all.

Sophisticated theology can be fascinating but if it's arguing that black is white it's worthless.

That's meaningless. Who's arguing that?

ExJWs, taught by "reading two years of Awake!...It's like going to college" and believing crap like that.

This is why I hate this place.

I hope I get "removed" from here. I hate you all. You remind me of Jehovah's Witnesses! Arrggh!

I give up. I give up. I give up. I give up.

Yes, I am wrong. I am evil. I told the lie.

You are are right. I am wrong. I give up. J wrote P, I believe you all. God lied. The snake is true. Whatever. I don't care. I believe whatever you all say.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

KalebOutWest

peacefulpete:

Kaleb are you then suggesting the two introductory stories were,by design, supplementary and the work of the same hand?
Or simply that source critical approaches are uninteresting (and and perhaps futile) therefore assessing the final product is preferable.

Neither.

I just wasn't talking about the source/authorship in my explanation. I also wasn't saying that the critical approaches were uninteresting.

Consider the recent book that also talks about the meaning of the creation myth of Genesis. Entitled Feh (which is a Yiddish expression a Jew uses for something that they find contemptible), it is basically a humorous commentary "origin story" written by Shalom Auslander, reflecting on his recent brush with death after taking one of those so-called weight-reducing drugs that so many of the rich and famous have been taking.

Having been friends with the late actor Philip Seymour Hoffman who died of a drug overdose in 2014, his own recent brush with the Grim Reaper by means of a pharmaceutical that Auslander sought out as a fat-reducing and life-changing panacea was not lost on him.

But what Auslander focuses on is neither whose hands were involved in writing the myth of Genesis to begin with or even God and his instruction regarding the forbidden fruit. The problem is that not only "God" but philosphers and scientists themselves all seem to want to tell Auslander and the rest of us that we come from dirt.

Dirt.

We were made from dirt.

God and men who supposedly know better than the rest of us have come to agreement without our permission or consensus that you and I are no better than dirt--feh.

You don't even have to join a religion to self-loath yourself and want to die. You just have to be fat like Auslander was and take a prescription drug that didn't agree with you to look like some guy on the Internet because you genetically cannot possibly look like someone who spends 72 hours a day in a gym and who eats nothing but chicken breasts and raw egg yokes and is made of marble and has a 12 inch penis and dates models and drives a sports car...and die, because this drug can kill you.

Who gives a f*ck about who lied and and ate what fruit because a snake had legs? God, philosophers, and 9 our of 10 scientists agree you are made out of dirt. That is why you hate yourself. You don't even have to be a Jehovah's Witnesses. You will never be pretty. You are dirt. Don't you want to die too? It's more than religion. It's science.

Of course, the above is just a somewhat morbidly/humorous take/interpretation on the Genesis story by another Jewish writer. The point is that there is no room in Auslander's take for which redactors wrote what part of the story in Feh. His commentary is meant to reflect on how society is self-destructive in its behavior, no better than dirt, treating other people like dirt, and that perhaps there is an essential "truth" in this mythology (unfortunately).

My commentary was similar. You don't always lean on "who wrote what" to make your point.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

KalebOutWest

MMM

In conclusion, even if the story is borrowed... err... stolen.... err... culturally appropriated, it's still God lying about the fruit.....

That depends on your point of view and how you interpret the story.

As Maimonides taught, God doesn't really speak or walk or talk or get jealous.

God doesn't lie any more than God tells the truth. To do claim such things is to make God in the image of humans. To do that is to make an idol out of God. Remember these are just stories.

In the story is God lying? Do Eve and Adam die?

Remember, the Hebrew does NOT read: "In that day you will die." That is just JWs being used to the NWT and a few English translations that used literal word-for-word King James English. In more modern versions, like the NRSVue and similar translations it just reads "you will surely die." No mention of a "day."

So where is the lie? They did die, right?

Or did Adam and Eve ever exist? Does God exist?

If none of them exist, did anyone lie?

Or if God does exist and like Maimonides teaches, God is not anthropomorphic, God is not a person and neither lies or tells the truth, what then?

Thus it depends. It's just a myth there to teach. You can say God lied and you can say God did not. But in reality both are true at the same time.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

KalebOutWest

TonusOH;

I can keep up with discussions to some degree only because that version isn't too different from mainstream Christianity, at least as it developed in the west.

I understand what you are trying to say, but technically someone with a theological bat might swat you for this statement. But there are some similarities, especially with the latest changes.

Actually Jehovah's Witnesses are closer to what is called "Adventist" Christianity. It also shares some views with "Unitarian" Christianity due to its rejection of the Trinity.

The mainstream churches are traditionally the Baptists, Congregationalists, Episcopalians, Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, the Disciples or Churches of Christ and Reformed Churches.

The Witnesses are also known as Restorationists, a group of Christians that sprung from the Second Great Awakening claiming to be chosen by God to "restore" the Church with Apostolic purity, centering around Millerite calculations which are believe that the book of Daniel can be used to calculate the Return of Christ.

Of these, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) has proven to be probably the most successful by creating its own book of holy writ.

The Mormon "God" is one of the most similar inventions to "Jehovah" I have ever seen, even though this one has sex with a divine wife. Most Witnesses are unaware that officially, according to Watchtower theology, even though it is made of spirit, "Jehovah" has a body too and literally lives in a place and is subject to time and space exactly like the "God" of Mormonism.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

KalebOutWest

peacefulpete:

Perhaps I am reading too much into it.

I am not too sure what you are talking about and why. I am sure you have your reasons and that they are all good.

I was merely mentioning how the two stories are presented in Torah (chapters 1 and then 2-3) as a foreword or introduction to the Torah--like when you go to a musical and you sit down and before the curtain rises you hear the orchestra play a bunch of the tunes of the songs that are going to play throughout the show jumbled together in a fancy introduction called the "Overture."

That is how it is presented when it is taught in Hebrew School from a theological perspective: i.e., Why does the Book of Jewish Law begin with Stories instead of Laws? Answer: It is a demonstration and an explanation all-in-one on the importance of obeying the Law and why we often do not .

As Jeffro and I cleared up among one another, I was not talking about where the story actually came from. I was talking about what the story was about.

I don't comment with others regarding the Document Hypothesis because most people here use the older form that Wellhausen invented.

Because I use the updated form, I only use R (Redactor) and D (Deuteronomist) and sometimes J (which now stands for Judean and not Jawist). *

I know this is not what you mean when you write things such as:

The J story, whether you accept Freidman's belief that it was the backbone of the Pentateuch or not, betrays a nuanced talent...

So I avoid it as we are not talking about the same "J" here.

I adopted the updated form to keep up with the standards my school and synagogue required several years ago.

___

*--Jawist had been combined with Elohist as it is now believed to be the same redactor and has been given the tag JE.