this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
And I mean, we don't always know whose myth really came first.
Writing doesn't prove a culture always came up with it or didn't lift it from its conquered people when we are talking about shared mythology using tropes common among civilizations before the Bronze Age Collapse.
I know the Jews didn't invent the Flood, but who did? We cannot say. It is fuzzy.
this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
Jeffro:
There are obvious and broadly accepted connections between the biblical ‘J’ stories (where ‘J’ is simply shorthand for those stories that we all know I’m referring to) and Mesopotamian stories, particularly the epic of Gilgamesh. It isn’t the case that there is no way to know that, and it isn’t remotely surprising or controversial that Jewish culture was influenced by Babylon.
My comments were about the origins of all mythology from the Bronze Age that shared common elements, not about where the Hebrews based the narratives found in their mythology.
We have no real historical records whatsoever for any civilization due to the Great Bronze Age Collapse, and that was what I was commenting on. Stories like the Trojan Horse tale might have been such a tale, but the Collapse makes it hard to tell. This is an example.
The mythology in the Torah fit within this model, but I was only speaking of their stories in light of the Collapse. We know they have connections to other Bronze Age stories, but none can claim which came first since many civilizations have similar stories and heroes in several cases, though not always.
The Jews do make reference to purposefully adapting Babylonian tales, often to mock them, and later scholars learned they were often lifting from the Epic.
But this is true about all our practices and celebrations. They come from various different sources and cultures, like Purim--totally grabbed from others.
Only Hanukkah comes from a historical event, but that was altered by rabbis with a "miracle" story since the Hasmonean dynasty ended in failure.
this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
Forgive the badly composed post I last submitted. I dictated it via voice while traveling.
Getting the latest news affecting the political scene and trying to do paperwork at the same time did not make this very accurate.
I usually write at a computer with an editor, but have not done so for the past 8 months.
this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
Peacefulpete:
The story has a Greek flavor, meaning nearly satirical...I can't help noticing your comments blend the 2 stories together. The P story features Torah and has none of the philosophical feel.
"Greek Macedonian" is what I believe is the more precise term my professors used and would correct me every time I would say "Greek" in reference to influences to mythology or legends employed in the Torah. While the Greeks did come forth from the Macedonians due to the rise of Alexander, the elements you may be seeing cannot be precisely untangled and have been likely been mixed in as there are due to the Great Bronze Age Collapse (for instance, this is why so many societies from before the Collapse share the Flood myth and why Moses and the Levites "come from Egypt" where it appears monotheism was invented--and why likely the names Moses, Aaron and Levite are probably Egytian and not Hebrew).
As I have often mentioned before, I do not offer my own personal views or my own personal convictions on anything. I am taking what I write from sources I teach from either at present or from over the years (if they have not be altered by the latest findings).
My comments rarely reflect the older Graf-Wellhausen Hypothesis from the 1800s or its revision in the last part of the 20th century. I have told you this before, in fact on more than one occasion, that it is no longer taught in academia as a standard hypothetical model.
By the time the 21st century came about it was learned that if one were to use that methodology it was possible to determine a multitude of far more hands involved than merely J, E, P & D. At the same time the data present from the findings from Qumran could finally be analyzed to develop a far better understanding along with archeological digs over the past century that altered the hypothesis greatly, suggesting it was in need of revision or replacement altogether.
Thus my comments do not employ the older hypothetic model.
The narrative likely contains elements from various civilizations, Greek--oops, there I go again, Macedonian, Egyptian, and more than we might be able to unscramble or know about, prior to the Bronze Age Collapse. That is the problem with everything before then and why all this is mythical. It might be based on things various peoples recall through folklore, but there is no way to know because of this widespread fall of society past.
I know people offer exactly what they believe here.
I do not.
While I am of Jewish stock and once lived among Jehovah's Witnesses and formally educated and currently teach religion, I am not a practicing Jew. I am considered a Jew and and have formal membership and work among them, etc., teaching and instructing them, but I am of a completely different denomination religiously speaking.
I keep my personal convictions and opinions to myself.
this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
But you may not like the actual order of events if you want to go down that path again...
And those were the very last words KalebOutWest ever heard.
At 10:52 pm, PDT, Kaleb's body was found in Las Vegas NV after beside two pieces of paper, one with a list of "horrible" citations someone obviously didn't "like" and the other with a joke about God telling Adam that masturbation causes blindness that appeared to be written in the writing of a 12-year-old boy on the old tatter map of some place called "Camp Beth El.:
Apparently Kaleb went "down" some "path" of some psycho that spent much too much time correcting other people's mistakes because they were ADHD and lived off of SSDI and lived their days on the Internet doing nothing more but correcting Wikipedia pages thinking the world owed them fame for doing it.
To this madman, all we can say is you don't have to worry about Kaleb anymore. You were right, he was wrong.
You were always right.
Always right.
Always right
Always right.
Oh, and God said She hates you.
this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
MMM:
Joke not about that tale!
It was one of my favorite jokes in Hebrew camp when I was a boy (to be honest I think a camp counselor who was a Reconstructionist rabbi told it to one of us in our group but probably in Boy Scouts--then we spread it around to the other more weakly Jews who only got outdoor in August at Camp Beth El--not to be confused with the Watchtower--where it became joke gold in a 12 year-old boy's arsenal).
As a bisexual Jewish man who loves all things masturbation and that precious joke, I can only say that I love you all the more.
It is holy writ (at least, we boys swore it was--Yeshiva boys' honor), and though some of us only pretended to get it until our balls fully formed and fell, we loved it all the same.
I cannot say I know what it truly means, because I believe its author, Buddy Hackett, took whatever he learned of its origins--from the Three Stooges--and swallowed the pages before he died, at least I hope so since the commentary was written on old pornography from the 1920s.-- I jest.
As for my nemesis, Jeffro, I don't really hate Jeffro. I get things wrong all the time too. I thought we were just playing back and forth due to some "horrible" words Jeffro has said in the past.
I have feelings too. They were incredibly insulting if they were real. So I thought Jeffro was kidding.
So I will just ignore Jeffro from this point onward.
this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
I only hate you Jeffro. Only you.
I love everyone else.
But the hate and the insults, are for your eyes only.
Love and kisses.
this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
Jeffro:
You can’t help yourself can you. These snide little judgements of people who point out any little thing you get wrong. Please stick to good content and just say those nonsense parts to yourself.
The "snide little judgments" I learned from copying and pasting every comment you have made on this site into a computer.
And the "snide" comments you despise are generated via Google's Gemini AI.
They are actually based upon your very own.
I designed it so that every time you posted something contrary about me, I would have AI come up with something.
You are essentially being judgemental to your own self.
It gives a new meaning to the expression: Go f#@k yourself.
Enjoy.
this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
And of course, the point I made, leave it to Jeffro to be nitpicky and to go off track about something because the mainpoint--that God does lie and in fact lies and that the Bible has many instances of this--and that this is just mythology where in the genre God is not bound to sensical things (again in the same myth God walks, talks, is under the Mosaic Law, and the Law itself existed before the world was founded) creates paradoxes if one takes any debate on whether "God lies" seriously.
God isn't a person or entity, even by Jewish standards, the people and culture who wrote the story.
In Judaism, "God" isn't even a "deity" which is why the founder of the Society for Humanistic Judaism had to invent a new terminology for his stand on the matter: ignosticism. One cannot argue belief for or against something that isn't a deity to begin with because no one can actually define something that is "ineffable" according to Jewish theology--so why even discuss it let alone debate it?
Of course, we are not talking about SHJ or Judaism. We are talking about people who have been influenced by the Watchtower. They get nitpicky, like Jeffro, over the wrong points.
It's okay to debate over God if that is your thing, and if this "God" lies or not.
But it is kinda ridiculous if at the same time you do not believe that this deity (or any) exists.
And when you say "God," which God do you mean? The God of the Bible? The Jewish Bible, as understood by the Jews? As understood by mainstream Christianity? They don't believe in the "God of the Bible." That is only something Fundamentalists believe in--and then only Christian Fundamentalists.
But then, which Christian Fundamentalists? Which God? Or how about the Muslim take on God? Or a non Judeo-Islamic-Christian God? Or just the JW form of God? Which God are you arguing over?
I'll bet none of you are arguing over the same one because none of you have the same one in mind.
That is why this has lasted so long on this forum. You can't decide whether God lied or not, not because God lied or didn't or because it is a myth or not, but because each of you here involved believe in different things when you use the word "God," even if you are atheist or agnostic.
Your definitions are different. We might think we imagine the same thing when you say "chocolate" and I say "chocolate," but each of us has a very different experience with chocolate. Chocolate is my favorite food, but it might be something you despise. Someone else can take it or leave it. Therefore neither us has the same chocolate in mind when we hear or say or debate the subject "chocolate."
It is the same thing about "God."
This will make it harder about any subject respecting "God," let alone whether "God" lied to Adam and Eve.
Did "chocolate" lie to Adam and Eve? It depends on how you view "chocolate."
this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
Yes Jeffro, you are correct. It is an oversimplification, but it is still true nevertheless.
The Mosaic Code has greatly influenced our Western legal systems, especially that of criminal law. Concepts from the Mosaic Code, like “strict liability” and proportional punishment, are used in today's modern laws. Holding people accountable for their actions and making sure punishments are fair historically go back to the days of American Puritanism. One can therefore say America's civil and criminal justice systems are grounded on the Mosaic Code.--American Jurispruidence: Influences in Western Societal Systems, Delaware, 1976.
However this is not to say that the Western legal system is based on the Torah or the Bible. It is not. The Torah itself is not the inventor of the ideas and ideals found within its legal system, so one cannot even claim that in the purest sense.
America however did not grow up in a vacuum. It developed in one inspired by and moved due from religious values, Judeo-Christian ones. From the Founding Fathers to the Abolitionist Movement to the Women's Suffrage Movement, the Bible and especially the Mosaic Law shaped Americans and the fight for freedom in the West, not to mention inspire it in other parts of Europe as well. The laws that established the Civil Rights movement were also inspired by Exodus found in the Torah.
But directly, no. I agree with you. It was merely a simplification. The story is far more complex than what I had or have time to express here...
...Or that you give credit to.
