rowan williams, the former archbishop of canterbury gave an interesting answer to the somewhat stark question, what’s the point of us existing?
as a christian, my starting point is that we exist because the most fundamental form of activity, energy, call it what you like, that is there, is love.
that is, it’s a willingness that the other should be.
Postscript to my last post:
I was called away before adding this for Peacefulpete...
I do believe, however, you are on the right track in searching.
Judaism itself is not about claiming to have the truth but about the search and the process. As in mathematics, often finding out how to work the correct formula or method to find the answer is more important than knowing or claiming you have the answer.
Otherwise how will you ever learn to think for yourself.
rowan williams, the former archbishop of canterbury gave an interesting answer to the somewhat stark question, what’s the point of us existing?
as a christian, my starting point is that we exist because the most fundamental form of activity, energy, call it what you like, that is there, is love.
that is, it’s a willingness that the other should be.
Peacefulpete:
It is however not impossible, in this particular detail, John preserves an older telling of the Passion story. Doing a little googling I found a few articles suggesting as much.
I'm not, as you know, a Christian, nor was I "Googling" around to find my conclusions. There are a lot of ideas and thus one can go on forever and never end.
I was merely explaining why Jesus died on Nisan 14 in one gospel as opposed to the others. I wasn't responding or inventing my replies for sport.
rowan williams, the former archbishop of canterbury gave an interesting answer to the somewhat stark question, what’s the point of us existing?
as a christian, my starting point is that we exist because the most fundamental form of activity, energy, call it what you like, that is there, is love.
that is, it’s a willingness that the other should be.
The Bible teaches that Jesus’ Father is the only true God (John 17.3) and that Jesus is the Son of God, the firstborn of all creation. (Col 1.15) You really don’t get simpler than that, which is the reason why most ordinary Christians perceive Jesus and God in those terms, despite what the later Trinitarian creeds say.
As a Jew, I have to agree that while the Hebrew Bible does not teach the Trinity, the New Testament, while not explicitly expressing the creed, does set the stage for the doctrine of the Trinity or at least the divinity of Jesus Christ.
It's not where the doctrine originated, as the creeds and doctrines of Trinitarian support grew during the same period that the New Testament canon was still being shaped, but it is hard to counter many of the outright texts in Christian Scripture and the works of the Church Fathers where Jesus is addressed as God.
This is the basic reason Jews do not believe Jesus of Nazareth is not the Messiah--not that he failed to fulfill all his work (a second coming or a messianic priest could indeed do these things missed, if any), not that he died (Simon Bar Kokhba and the Rebbe, both messianic figures, died too), not even the stories of his resurrection (that would be evidence of divine approval, no?).
The main reason Jews don't accept Jesus of Nazareth as Messiah is that we would have to worship him as God, because that is the claim--and we don't believe people can be God or God can be people.
The point is, Christians do. And that means the Trinity is and has been a certain and central belief of Christianity from the beginning--otherwise, why the stumbling block? I mean, a messianic figure that rises after dying on the third day sounds cool. Right? (But I have to break the first of the Ten Commandments if I follow Jesus according to Judaism...eh...)
Don't worry Christians. Jews generally accept the Trinity as technically a theological form of monotheism--meaning we do not view Christian worship as heathen or Pagan. (It's just not a form we Jews are allowed to engage in.) But, it has always been what makes a Christian Christian.
rowan williams, the former archbishop of canterbury gave an interesting answer to the somewhat stark question, what’s the point of us existing?
as a christian, my starting point is that we exist because the most fundamental form of activity, energy, call it what you like, that is there, is love.
that is, it’s a willingness that the other should be.
The author of the Gospel of John likely changed the chronology of Jesus' crucifixion for theological and symbolic reasons rather than historical ones.
"John" wasn't trying to confuse an audience that obviously already knew the story of Jesus. What he was doing was trying to deepen the significance by playing off of tropes and symbols.
For example, the so-called "Kelvin Star Trek" films introduced an alternate "reality" for Star Trek that reveals itself subtly, in small steps in the story, making fans who are watching feel a great sense of familiarity until a main character, the mother of Spock, dies while his home planet is destroyed--something that can't happen for Star Trek to be "Star Trek."
The Gospel of John is a similar type of work. It is not attempting to be another retelling of the Jesus story every Christian knows. This author claims to be (or know) the apostle who witnessed everything and everybody, and seems quite old. He's come to understand things from a spiritual perspective--and it's this perspective, telling readers what the "Jesus experience" means, is what he does or is trying to do--as opposed to what happened.
This is similar to Matthew. Matthew wrote what Jesus "meant" for a Jewish Christian audience, as the "New Moses." So John does the same thing, writing the story as if Jesus were the Divine "Word" in control of everything from beginning to end, a physical man with a divine meaning, not merely Jesus the Christ.
Jesus first miracle was not turning water into wine at a wedding, for instance. And Jesus could indeed be recognized (though in John, the disciples don't know who he is) after his resurrection, but these two things are obviously tied together. Think. Since the author is not being literal, he's saying "what" about his subject? Especially since he's beginning and ending his Gospel about Jesus like this...the Gospel about the Word of God.
And when the bishops closed the Christian canon of the New Testament, they purposefully placed John as the last Gospel and the Revelation to John, a book of signs, last. Why? There is a significant reason.
It all has to do with why John moved Jesus's death around. It's symbolic. The author teaches in signs and symbols. From the first "sign" at the wedding at Cana to this moment and beyond, the author sees Jesus providentially in control of his life, and the author teaches us this, even if he has to change the days, times and literal events surrounding Jesus's life to do so.
He's not playing with the events of Jesus's life. On the contrary, the author is using them to teach his audience what he knows about God.
rowan williams, the former archbishop of canterbury gave an interesting answer to the somewhat stark question, what’s the point of us existing?
as a christian, my starting point is that we exist because the most fundamental form of activity, energy, call it what you like, that is there, is love.
that is, it’s a willingness that the other should be.
Peacefulpete:
This depends upon what day Passover lands.
One does not start to observe Preparation the same time every year due to various circumstances, especially when the Temple stood and the various offerings had to be considered.
I am bad with numbers, so feel free to correct me if I am wrong. I will double-check with other sources as I can as translating Jewish hours into our common hours always gets me, not to mention the Hebrew calendar/Gregorian translation thing.
According to Mishnah Pesachim 5:1, the usual daily afternoon Tamid (continual offering) was slaughtered at 8.5 hours (approximately 2:30 PM) and offered at 9.5 hours (approximately 3:30 PM). You had to offer this always, somehow, no matter what. Keep this in mind.
However, on Erev Pesach (Passover Eve), when it fell on a weekday, the Tamid was offered an hour earlier (or even more) to allow time for the Passover sacrifices. This meant the slaughtering of the Tamid began at least around 1:30 PM and was offered by approximately 2:30 PM.
Immediately after the Tamid offering, the Passover sacrifices commenced. Thus, the slaughter of the Passover lambs began around 2:30 PM and continued until sunset. If Passover fell on a Friday, the Tamid was brought even earlier to accommodate the start of Shabbat.
Since we count Jewish hours in a day from sunrise, the 6th hour is our noon, the 9th being our 3pm, we can rightly conclude that War of the Jews is not describing a Preparation Day that falls on a Friday.
Why not? It describes sacrifices beginning after the normal second Tamid, approximately 2:30 PM.
Christian tradition is that Jesus died on a Friday and rose the following Sunday. So we have to follow the allowances in the law for an earlier start to the Preparation.
it-1 p. 493 communication - "when the circumcision issue was resolved by the governing body in jerusalem......".
it-1 p. 881 galatians, letter to the - "by reason of a revelation, paul, with barnabas and titus, went to jerusalem regarding the circumcision issue; he learned nothing new from james, peter, and john, but they recognized that he had been empowered for an apostleship to the nations.
" (galatians 2:1-10).
Jeffro,
We are in total agreement.
The stories the Jews wrote about the Neo-Babylonian period were interpretations of events that actually happened, and there are corresponding verifiable historical events.
This is correct.
My comments were about the Tanakh were about the collection as a whole, being a liturgical library:
...the Tanakh (the Hebrew Bible) is viewed as a collection of religious texts, not historical ones.
This does not mean that there are no historical references therein. I was stating that its purpose (according to most Jewish traditions) was mainly liturgical in nature. Gone With the Wind has many accurate historical details that it notes therein, but like the Bible, it is not reporting history in the way the Watchtower religion is claiming. That was my point.
rowan williams, the former archbishop of canterbury gave an interesting answer to the somewhat stark question, what’s the point of us existing?
as a christian, my starting point is that we exist because the most fundamental form of activity, energy, call it what you like, that is there, is love.
that is, it’s a willingness that the other should be.
Peacefulpete says:
John 19:14 says Jesus was still being tried by Pilate at noon. John also drops the whole 3 hours of darkness element.
Correct.
This is due to John altering his gospel to retrofit the life story of Jesus into the Jewish Paschal liturgy cycle. Like all the other Passover lambs, Jesus has to be offered before God by the priests according to this narrative model.
Unlike in the other Synoptic Gospels where Jesus died on Passover day, Nisan 15, in John's gospel Jesus is handed over from Annas to Caiaphas, both high priests, then to Pilate--afterwards we are told "it was the day of Preparation for the Passover, [Nisan 14] and it was about noon. [Pilate] said to the Jews, 'Here is your King!'"--John 18:24-19:14ff.
According to the Talmud and Josephus, on Nisan 14, the priests would hand over the first of thousands of lambs for the Passover Seder meals beginning at 12 noon and stop the slaughtering beginning at 3 pm so roasting could begin.
In John's narrative the high priests hand over Jesus at noon on Nisan 14 and he dies at 3 pm, "the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!"--John 1:29; compare 19:31-37.
John does not record the hour Jesus died, but is obviously playing off of the historical Paschal details, as well as Passover and Christian traditions.
This appears to be so central a theme to John's work that he changed the day of Jesus's death and replaced the Lord’s Last Supper with the Washing of the Apostles Feet and telling Judas to do something that other disciples mistake for instructions to "buy what we need for the festival," a meaningless command if this had been Passover night as Passover is a Sabbath and the day after Passover is also a Sabbath, and no buying or carrying money is allowed on either date if this was the night of the Seder.--John 13:29.
This only appears in John because only in John is it early enough before Passover to still carry money to shop and buy things ahead of Preparation Day, Nisan 14, due to John shifting things around unlike the other gospel accounts.
it-1 p. 493 communication - "when the circumcision issue was resolved by the governing body in jerusalem......".
it-1 p. 881 galatians, letter to the - "by reason of a revelation, paul, with barnabas and titus, went to jerusalem regarding the circumcision issue; he learned nothing new from james, peter, and john, but they recognized that he had been empowered for an apostleship to the nations.
" (galatians 2:1-10).
I've commented countless times how the Tanakh (the Hebrew Bible) is viewed as a collection of religious texts, not historical ones. Religious truth and historical fact are very different things. One cannot expect to produce precise historical dates from religious narrative.
The constant championing of the date of 607 BCE is merely a smokescreen to hide the repeated failures of Jehovah's Witnesses and the failures of their leaders "Jehovah God" uses. Either they cannot follow Jehovah very well or Jehovah cannot lead them with precision ...or perhaps Jehovah just doesn't exist at all.
We are in the year 2025, so far away from 1874, and so miserable is the streak of prophetic predictions based on 606/607 BCE. This is why Scholar circles around it. Vultures circle around dead bodies that offer nothing but rot. If we move further away, we find nothing but more and more evidence of dead people who waited and waited for a kingdom that was promised by people who claimed to have true spiritual insight but never did anything more but spoon out spiritual poison.
it-1 p. 493 communication - "when the circumcision issue was resolved by the governing body in jerusalem......".
it-1 p. 881 galatians, letter to the - "by reason of a revelation, paul, with barnabas and titus, went to jerusalem regarding the circumcision issue; he learned nothing new from james, peter, and john, but they recognized that he had been empowered for an apostleship to the nations.
" (galatians 2:1-10).
Yes, 606 BCE was the year used to calculate the so-called "seven Gentile Times," not to mention the Pyramid stuff (the "Great Stone Witness" was declared "inspired" like the Bible, but using masonry instead of Scripture--Charles Taze Russell taught that the Great Pyramid of Giza contained prophetic "Pyramid inches" that foretold the return of Christ in 1874 and the end of all Gentile nations in 1914).
When Jehovah's Witnesses changed their teaching on 1874 they also changed their views on 1914 and subsequently mistakes on 606 and the so-called inspiration of masonry.
Watchtower belief was that Jesus returned in 1874 and that the end of the Gentile Times in 1914 meant the End of the World.
Lots of problems never considered by so-called "Scholar."
rowan williams, the former archbishop of canterbury gave an interesting answer to the somewhat stark question, what’s the point of us existing?
as a christian, my starting point is that we exist because the most fundamental form of activity, energy, call it what you like, that is there, is love.
that is, it’s a willingness that the other should be.
Sea Breeze is like those members of Chabad I mentioned who claim that Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson is the resurrected Messiah.
Sea Breeze is asked:
Then, God can die without ceasing to exist?
Sea Breeze replies:
Of course.
We might tend to forget that many of the people we shared our time with in the Watchtower were the ideal profile of a cult member. If it were not the Jehovah's Witnesses, it would be some other group they would have been a member of.
There are a lot of crazy cults out there.
Just because they are now exJWs does not mean they no longer fit the cult member profile all of a sudden either. Some still want to "drink Kool-aid," so to speak, but just a "different flavor or brand.
If someone believes that God could die or be a baloney sandwich for three days and then become God again, well we know that person cannot possibly be reasoned with. They already had their mind made up that when their "rebbe" was going to die that he was not going to be dead no matter what anyone said or whatever actually happened to him.
You can't argue with that.
So many here are like that.
Just leaving Watchtower doesn't suddenly make people reasonable or critical thinkers.
