Posts by Perry

59

Other Sheep & New Covenant WT Scams

by Perry in

Perry

It is ironic that the very chapter that starts off with a warning from Jesus in the first verse about trying to get into the kingdom some other way than the one he perscribes, contains a verse that the WT uses to try and explain why it is OK to personally reject the New Covenant at the Memorial, and disobey Jesus command to accept the blood covenant symbolized by the Wine Cup to get their personal sins forgiven. (Mt 26:27-28)

Yet, this is what they have sold to the masses. In John 10:16 Jesus makes this casual statement: "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring" In Mt 15:24 Jesus said while talking to some Jews : "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." But we all know that the opportunity of pardon of sin was later opened up to Gentiles.

So, in 1 Cor. 12: 12 - 13 Paul plainly states who the other sheep are that make up the one fold: For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Clearly the other sheep that Jesus prophesied about were Gentiles.

The anonymous Watchtower writers have also gone to great lenghts to obscure what the New Covenant is. If you ask the average Jehovah's Witness what the New Covenant is and why they reject it; they will tell you that the New Covenant is a contract between God and certain men (144,000) to rule inside of the governmnental portion of God's Kingdom. They base this belief upon the reading in the New World Translation of Luke 22: 29 which erroneously reads: "and I make a covenant with you, just as my father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom".

On page 1584 of the New World Translation Reference Bible, each of the 33 occurances of the Greek word for covenant, diathe'ke is listed. Luke 22: 29 is not included in this list because the word "covenant" does not appear in the greek text for this scripture. Here is the page so you can see for yourself. Despite this, Fred Franz added it twice anyway in this NWT passage to support the Watchtower's heretical two-covenant (two-class class) theology. There is only one covenant; and it is for the forgiveness of a persons' individual sins and not for a kingdom.

So, when a Jehovah's Witness rejects the New Covenant at their observance of the Lord's Supper, he thinks he is only rejecting some sort of governmental position in God's Kingdom, not forfeiting his salvation. Further, he feels OK with this because he doesn't feel like ruling material anyway because deep down he knows that he is not justified before God. In other words, the JW doesn't really know for sure if his sins are forgiven and so naturally he cannot imagine any such a position. This disobedience to Jesus, actually appears to have the "ring of truth" to him.

59

Other Sheep & New Covenant WT Scams

by Perry in

Perry

70

Were any of you anointed?

by TimothyT in

did any of you feel that mystical force telling you that you were of the anointed class?.

what did it feel like?

was it real?

Perry

Tammy,

There is certainly no scriptural basis for anyone who has heard the gospel and rejected it to be shown mercy. There is all sorts of "what if" scenarios like what if Jesus meets someone on the way to hell and offers them one last chance? What if someone never heard of Jesus etc, etc, etc. I personally believe that any number of things can be done by God to save whomever he wishes to make part of the New Covenant which is for the forgiveness of sins.

But, this kind of speculation isn't wise to preach because it wasn't an early church message at all.

70

Were any of you anointed?

by TimothyT in

did any of you feel that mystical force telling you that you were of the anointed class?.

what did it feel like?

was it real?

Perry

Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained." —John 20:23

The Greek word for "remit" is "aphiemi" and means "to send away."

According to VINE'S COMPLETE EXPOSITORY DICTIONARY OF OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT WORDS (pg. 522)...Scripture makes clear that the Lord's words could not have been intended to bestow the exercise of absolution, which Scripture declares is the prerogative of God alone. There is no instance in the New Testament of this act on the part of the Apostles. The words are to be understood in a declarative sense; the statement has regard to the effects of their ministry of the Gospel, with its twofold effects of remission and retention.

Clearly, John 20:23 doesn't teach that men have the power to forgive sin. Even the unsaved Pharisees knew this... "And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?"

70

Were any of you anointed?

by TimothyT in

did any of you feel that mystical force telling you that you were of the anointed class?.

what did it feel like?

was it real?

Perry

Nothing they had could atone for their sins (otherwise they would not have had to continue making sacrifices that could NOT cleanse them,

The animal sacrifices did retroactively (by faith) atone for their past sin. The hands were placed upon the head of theanimal and sins confessed before slaughter. The sin died with the animal. The death penalty was vicariously carried out..... picturing Jesus much later.

But, without being born again with the sinless spirit of God, they had to keep doing it for future sins. This not the case for New Covenant believers. "Christ died once for all time"

Atone for our sin? No. But grant us forgiveness due to God's mercy, and also His justice... why not?

Because it was not a message the apostles and the early church taught.

39

The New Testament in Plain English and John 1:1

by Wonderment in

.

the new testament in plain english (published, 2003) translates john 1:1c as: "the word was god.

" however, a footnote on this verse says: "or, deity, divine (which is actually a better translation, because the greek definite article is not present before this greek word).

Perry

I see that you quote Col 1 showing, that by Christ all things were created by him. Strange, that you think that Christ created everything (and the first human pair?). Yet, Christ himself said that ‘He [God] created them, male and female.'

Both statements are true. Christ is of the same essence of God just as God is of the same essence as the Son. They have to be in order for the bible to be true. It is the same as saying she pinched "me". Or, she pinched my arm. My arm is both something I posess and me at the same time. So, both are perfectly appropriate figures of speech.

Further, many millions of Christians reject the 1% disagreeing minority texts promoted by the occultists Westcott and Hort and only accept the 99% body of texts that are in agreement with each other. Here's a few other differences as well:

SCRIPTURE	KJV	NASB	NIV	NWT
1 Cor. 15:47	The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.	the first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.	The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.	the first man is out of the earth and made of dust; the second man is out of heaven
Zech 12: 9,10 (Jehovah is speaking)	and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son	so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son	They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child	and they will certainly look to the One whom they pierced through, and they will certainly wail over Him as in the wailing over an only [son];
Micah 5: 2 (Jesus is from everlasting…before time)	Bethlehem…out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting	Bethlehem…From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity	Bethlehem…out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times	Beth´le•hem … from you there will come out to me the one who is to become ruler in Israel, whose origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite.
Daniel 3:25 (The Son of God made occasional appearance in the OT)	the Son of God	a son of the gods	a son of the gods	a son of the gods
I Timothy 3:16	God was manifest in the flesh	He who was revealed in the flesh	He appeared in a body	He was made manifest in the flesh
Acts 3:13, 26	his Son Jesus	His Servant Jesus	His Servant Jesus	His Servant Jesus
Philippians 2:6 (Jesus did not think that he was robbing God by being his equal)	thought it not robbery to be equal with God	did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped	did not consider equality with God something to be grasped	gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God
Acts 8:37	that Jesus Christ is the Son of God	omitted (marginal note)	omitted (footnote)	omitted
John 6:69	thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God	You are the Holy One of God	You are the Holy One of God	You are the Holy One of God
John 9:35	Son of God	Son of Man	Son of Man	Son of Man
Matthew 20:20	worshipping him	bowing down	kneeling down	doing obeisance
Matthew 19:17	And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God	"Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good	"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good.	“Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is that is good.
Hosea 13: 4 (was isn’t the same as is)	Yet I am the LORD thy God… for there is no saviour beside me	Yet I {have been} the LORD your God… For there is no savior besides Me	"But I am the Lord your God… You shall acknowledge … no Savior except me	“But I am Jehovah your God …and there was no savior but I
John 4:42 (Both Jehovah and Christ are the only "saviour” – See above)	this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world	this One indeed is the Savior of the world	this man really is the savior of the world	this man is for a certainty the savior of the world
Romans 1:3	Jesus Christ our Lord	omitted	omitted	Lord Jesus Christ
Ephesians 3:14	of our Lord Jesus Christ	omitted	omitted	omitted
I Thess. 2:19	our Lord Jesus Christ	our Lord Jesus	our Lord Jesus	our Lord Jesus
I Thess. 3:11	our Lord Jesus Christ	Jesus our Lord	our Lord Jesus	our Lord Jesus
II Thess. 1:8	our Lord Jesus Christ	our Lord Jesus	our Lord Jesus	our Lord Jesus
Ephesians 3:14	of our Lord Jesus Christ	omitted	omitted	omitted
Luke 24:52	they worshipped him	after worshiping Him	they worshiped him	they did obeisance to him
Hebrews1: 5,6 (worshipping anything other than God is idolatry)	Thou art my Son… And let all the angels of God worship him.	YOU ARE MY SON… “AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."	"You are my Son…Let all God's angels worship him."	You are my son; …“And let all God’s angels do obeisance to him.”
Hebrews 1:8 (See Ps. 45:6)	But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever	But of the Son He says, YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER	But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever	But with reference to the Son: “God is your throne forever (original passage in Psalms was perverted to support this one)
John 14:28	my Father	the Father	the Father	the Father
Philippians 4:13	through Christ	through Him	through Him	by virtue of him
Acts 7:59,60	Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit he…cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge.	he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus receive my spirit”! he… cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!"	Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit” he cried out, …"Lord, do not hold this sin against them	he made appeal and said: “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit”… he cried out with a strong voice: “Jehovah, do not charge this sin against them.”
Acts 20: 28 The Christian God bleeds	feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.	shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood	Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood	shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own [Son]
Titus 2:13 (God himself is our savior)	Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us	looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us footnote disclaimer	while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us	while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of [the] Savior of us, Christ Jesus, who gave himself for us

SCRIPTURE	KJV	NIV	NWT
Revelation 1: 7,8 (reference to Matt. 24:30 & Mark 13:26) (Jesus returns with the clouds, he is the Almighty)	Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, …I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, … saith the Lord, … the Almighty.	Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, … I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God… the Almighty	Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, …“I am the Al´pha and the O•me´ga,” says Jehovah God, the Almighty.”
Revelation 1: 10-17 The Son of Man is the First and the Last, he is also the Alpha and Omega,	I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book,… And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw … one like unto the Son of man, … And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last	On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, which said: "Write on a scroll what you see… and I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw …someone "like a son of man," … When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last	By inspiration I came to be in the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a strong voice like that of a trumpet, saying: “What you see write in a scroll… And I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me, and, having turned, I saw… someone like a son of man,… And when I saw him, I fell as dead at his feet. And he laid his right hand upon me and said: “Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last
Rev. 22;12-16	And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last… I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches	"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End… "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches	“‘Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is. I am the Al´pha and the O•me´ga, the first and the last, the beginning and the end… “‘I, Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to YOU people of these things for the congregations

70

Were any of you anointed?

by TimothyT in

did any of you feel that mystical force telling you that you were of the anointed class?.

what did it feel like?

was it real?

Perry

Tammy,

Jesus was sent to God's covenant people.

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. - Jesus

These people already had a sin-atoning contract in hand. Either way, simply forgiving others cannot atone for our sin. Like I said, otherwise Christ died for nothing.

" if righteousness be through law -- then Christ died in vain."

But he also showed that anyone who does good to even the least of his brothers has done good to Him, and will not lose his reward.

And, what is that reward? Is it the same as salvation? Or is it just entry into the kingdom as a survivor of the GT? It is not clear and certainly cannot be used to deny other copiously abundant scriptures to the contrary.

Before you say that he spoke just of his 'blood' brothers of Israel, I would remind you that it is "He who does the will of my father in heaven who is my brother, sister, mother." Those are His words.

And can you (or anyone else) do the will of the father without being born again which follows New Covenant membership? Of course not. Romans 3 settles that:

What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written °, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

8

Question about "The Kingdom"

by TimothyT in

we have just come back from our second visit to the baptist church.

again, it was fabulous.

since being disfellowshipped, i have only wanted two things: a place to be accepted and a place where i can have good upbuilding bible instruction and discussion.

Perry

Awen.... the disciples didn't get the Holy Spirit until Pentecost .... after Jesus ascended into heaven. So, it seems impossible that the writer of "Thomas" had this in mind as you suggest.

I am not trying to argue with you. I'm just a little surprised that you could have such strong convictions about something you are unable to biblically explain. And, that is not meant to be personally derogatory. It seems unwise.

70

Were any of you anointed?

by TimothyT in

did any of you feel that mystical force telling you that you were of the anointed class?.

what did it feel like?

was it real?

Perry

Christ asked his father to forgive those who had betrayed and tortured and killed him. They were also not part of the New Covenant.

How do you know this? Perhaps they were converted before they died? Perhaps, because "they knew not what they were doing", God forgave them for that specific sin but not the other sins that they commited that they were aware of.

70

Were any of you anointed?

by TimothyT in

did any of you feel that mystical force telling you that you were of the anointed class?.

what did it feel like?

was it real?

Perry

Tammy,

Jesus words are going to be extremely important to the tribulation-era saints. This is who I believe he is addressing here. The scripture that we used to quote to promote a works based salvation is also one I believe Jesus was directing to the tribulation Jews/Saints: "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved"