Posts by nibbled

18

We're both out 2 years now- crossroads

by LittleMac in

jw
friends

this is a personal post, so be warned!

this is what leads me to post today.

during our first year out together, we had so much to share and to have in common, the enemy of the organization now, birthday parties galore, going out and making friends with people.

nibbled

Ditto for the "grow together". It may not be at the same speed, but some things help like, "date your wife".

Knock her socks off. Throw her for a whirl. Get away just you and her. Dare to dream and share those dreams. Throw in a little chili powder.

Now that I'm single I can't imagine accepting any other man as my head than the Christ, but there is also something to be said for having a partner-in-crime and bed!

You remember that illustration about the pendulum pulled way back to one side? So you guys went swinging? Don't worry it'll settle down. Rely on your Father, he won't leave you even if you forgot to check in. I learned that.

Figure out what you want, with him in mind, and he'll work with you in accord with his will.

I'm always touched by the stories of couples who got out together.

I'll say a prayer for your family tonight.

Oh! And you said it, "it feels really good to get this out into words"... make sure you keep doing that, hopefully in words to your Father in prayer, and I also use a journal which is sort of like a letter to him, in addition to sharing on forums (virtual gathering together in fellowship, some company more pleasant than others!).

11

When will my daddy be resurrected?

by nibbled in

jw
friends

20:12, 13: i saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened.

john and revelation both say that the dead will be judged according to their deeds.

that resurrection is for those who rule with christ for the thousand years.

nibbled

What is equivocal about: "The rest of the dead didn’t live until the thousand years were finished."???

It seems pretty explicit to me.

Hope you can find the caps lock key on your keyboard—typing in all caps is so 2012. :)

Are you offering no hope for my seeing my father again?

When you say "wake up" do you mean figuratively, literally, or spiritually?

Do you enjoy any of the rich language of literature? Or is it all to confuse people like you view the scriptures?

52

New Member / MS still in...

by Comatose in

jw
friends

feels real strange typing this.

i was what you all call born in.

i was happy growing up.

nibbled

Hi Comatose.

I'm beyond my bed time and my glass of wine is lonely as I can't type one handed. :)

I also just joined this forum. It's a relief to find that I can post all the things I'd written with no one to share them with, for fear I'd be cast out in the cold as an 'apostate'. One day after my mother threw the term out there (last summer) when I was attempting to point out to her what Matthew 24 says about the slave, when they'd be appointed, that later they'd be rewarded, etc, I realized the truth of the matter—I might be called an apostate of the Watchtower, but one could never call me an apostate of God.

Try signing up for YouVersion.com and start reading a different version of the scriptures. I don't have "a" version, as much as I now use many, and rely on the interlinear.

The Watchtower, as someone just pointed out to me, has been said to put out more atheist's than any other religion.

It's time to see if you can turn to God and his Word—his son—and salvage a relationship free and clear from interference. One day it just dawned on me, for a brief moment I was given over into big huge weepy tears in prayer apologizing for thinking that they could ever speak for him, and that I'd fallen to believing their word over his.

I read the bible for myself and promptly became 'an apostate'.

Right now I get that you're in a different place. But it does come down to the "come to Jesus moment" as I'd heard said in the South when I was a kid. You can either dig deeper, or throw in the towel.

I hope you'll dig a little deeper, there's danger in religion because they all have just a little bit of the truth. The only way to get all the truth is to recognize WHO he is and to rely on him.

On another forum that I've been on for a while now with a bunch of grumpy old men academic types (sorry guys!) I mentioned how I love the riddles and mysteries of the scriptures—I'd never really read it before in my 20 years (12-32 yrs old) as a JW. Then over the last year I've found it's the greatest book I've ever read, and I've read a ton!

God sends the spirt of his son into our hearts to cry out "Abba, Father". Is that Christ as a spirit, or the spirit which belongs to Christ? Christ is the truth, and we know that the spirit of truth will lead us into all the truth—is that Christ as a spirit, or is that the spirit of Christ?

The flood came over all the land. Is that all the land of the entire earth, or is that all the land of Mesopotamia? Have you read the Epic of Gilgamesh, the oldest written story on Earth? How does that factor into your feelings? What do you imagine that the land of the earth looked like in those days—was it like our world map of the contintents today? Were there the mountains we have today?

This isn't about anything but you and your God, and your mediator, his son. Relax. Breath in and out, remember that there was this story you heard once, and then take a big bite out of the bread of life, the Word of God who came in the flesh. He'll take care of the rest! (Even if you decide now isn't a good time for a glass of wine!) :)

If I can recommend, buy a journal, track your journey, and share your updates as you dig into the word and ask, "Why" trusting that he will answer you. I'd love to hear what you come to think. I'm gonna take your list and use it for study research for myself.

Thanks for sharing!

24

24,000 Partakers This Time?

by Cameron_Don in

jw
friends

have any been keeping up with anointedjw.coms gentle efforts to help the governing body, and all the rest of jehovahs witnesses, come to realize that there is just one hope for all christians the heavenly hope.

it will be very interesting to see how effective their efforts will have been at the up-coming memorial of christs death.

anointed.com is expecting that the number of those who will partake of the emblems may double from 12,000 to 24,000. .

nibbled

I came to realize that the Truth was a man and not a religion by reading the scriptures through cover-to-cover using a 90-day YouVersion reading plan and a different version than the NWT.

After that it's been a non-stop journey of coming to learn "all the truth" by means of the spirit of truth sent as the helper. That has been the coolest experience ever.

One of the stops along the way was the question about the whole memorial thing. "Keep doing this in rememberance of me"... only that meant just a few people in the first few years of the first century, and then a few others at the end of the world as we know it?

I took a friend to the memorial who had grown up Christian. It was eye opening trying to explain why everyone had refused the body and blood of Christ.

At some point I found the anointedjw.org site but was put off by yet another person claiming to speak for God or Christ and interfereing in my relationship with them. Being Christ's ambassodors, such as mentioned at 2 Corinthians 5:20 has nothing to do with "subbing him out" as it were. He's reigning just fine in heaven, where he's done since he got there at his father's right hand after he died and was resurrected into spirit.

With or without the anointedjw.org initiative the major problem is that only those who are protesting the Watchtower would bother to enter a Kingdom Hall and sit through a ceremony denying the Christ to partake of the emblems.

Those who are called to Christ partake as often as they remember him, and recognize the signifigance of the emblems and don't degrade that by using them as a means to an end. Christ woke you up, didn't he? Can't he do that for your friends too? What have you got to do with it?

The number who remember Christ cannot be numbered anyone. Remember—it's a great crowd which no man is able to number. Even if that man claims to speak for God.

Here's to the crazy ones...

Memorial partakers. This is the number of baptized individuals who partake of the emblems at the Memorial worldwide. Does this total represent the number of anointed ones on earth? Not necessarily. A number of factors—including past religious beliefs or even mental or emotional imbalance—might cause some to assume mistakenly that they have the heavenly calling. We thus have no way of knowing the exact number of anointed ones on earth; nor do we need to know. The Governing Body does not keep a list of all partakers, for it does not maintain a global network of anointed ones.

11

When will my daddy be resurrected?

by nibbled in

jw
friends

20:12, 13: i saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened.

john and revelation both say that the dead will be judged according to their deeds.

that resurrection is for those who rule with christ for the thousand years.

nibbled

From a discussion I tried to have with my mom, and an elder. Your thoughts warmly requested.

Context:

The Word of God says:

"The rest of the dead didn’t live until the thousand years were finished." — Revelation 20:5

The Watchtower says:

"The general resurrection takes place on earth during Christ’s Millennial Reign". — The Watchtower Reasoning from the Scriptures, rs pp. 333-340

When will my daddy be resurrected?

The scriptures describes those who "lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years" as "the first resurrection" and says "the rest of the dead didn’t live until the thousand years were finished." — Revelation 20:4,5 The Watchtower Reasons on the Scriptures Below is the excerpt from the Watchtower's Reasoning From the Scriptures for "Resurrection" and includes inline commentary.

What prospects will await those raised to life on earth?

Luke 23:43: “Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.” (All the earth will be transformed into a paradise under the rule of Christ as King.)

Rev. 20:12, 13: “I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds. . . . They were judged individually according to their deeds.” (The opening of scrolls evidently points to a time of education in the divine will, in harmony with Isaiah 26:9. The fact that “the scroll of life” is opened indicates that there is opportunity for those who heed that education to have their names written in that scroll. Ahead of them will be the prospect of eternal life in human perfection.)
See also pages 227-232, under “Kingdom.”

"The opening of scrolls evidently points to a time of education in the divine will, in harmony with Isaiah 26:9. The fact that “the scroll of life” is opened indicates that there is opportunity for those who heed that education to have their names written in that scroll. Ahead of them will be the prospect of eternal life in human perfection." While the Watchtower teaches that these books "evidently point to a time of education", they must ignore that the opening of scrolls, or books, are mentioned through out the scriptures, clearly and repeatedly.

Daniel 7:10 A river of fire was flowing, coming out from before him. Thousands upon thousands attended him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The court was seated, and the books were opened.
Daniel 12:1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.
Luke 10:20 However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven."
Revelation 2:23 I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.
Revelation 3:5 He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
Revelation 11:18 The nations were angry; and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great—and for destroying those who destroy the earth."
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
Revelation 20:13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.
Revelation 20:15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

These books are used to judge the dead, based on their deeds, and to reward those written in the book of life. Daniel shows the books being used prior to the thousand year reign, Matthew and Luke refer to being rewarded based on deeds and being written in heaven. Revelation reiterates that he searches hearts and minds and repays according to their deeds, rewarding those whose names are written in the book of life. There is the book of life, and the book of deeds, which are used to judge the dead.

Will some be raised simply to have judgment pronounced and then be consigned to second death?

What is the meaning of John 5:28, 29? It says: “All those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.” What Jesus said here must be understood in the light of the later revelation that he gave to John. (See Revelation 20:12, 13, quoted on page 337.) Both those who formerly did good things and those who formerly practiced bad things will be “judged individually according to their deeds.” What deeds? If we were to take the view that people were going to be condemned on the basis of deeds in their past life, that would be inconsistent with Romans 6:7: “He who has died has been acquitted from his sin.” It would also be unreasonable to resurrect people simply for them to be destroyed. So, at John 5:28, 29a, Jesus was pointing ahead to the resurrection; then, in the remainder of Joh 5 verse 29, he was expressing the outcome after they had been uplifted to human perfection and been put on judgment.

Romans 6:7 and John 5:28,29 are not inconsistent, despite the assertion. Romans says he who has died has been acquitted from his sin. This verse was written in Greek (Aramaic) and the word rendered sin is hamartias. John and Revelation both say that the dead will be judged according to their deeds. Sin is something we inherited from Adam, and deeds are something which is our personal actions, despite having inherited sin. John and Revelation are also books written in Greek (Aramaic). The word rendered in John for deeds is erga, the same word which is used in Revelation.

2041 /érgon ("work") is a deed (action) that carries out (completes) an inner desire (intension, purpose).

If you were to go through the Greek scriptures and swapped deeds for sin and sin for deeds, it is clear that they are not the same thing.

"Therefore, just as deeds entered the world through one man, and death through deeds, and in this way death came to all men, because all deeded."

“He who has died has been acquitted from his deeds.”

"And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their sins."

Further, Paul used both words in a letter to Timothy where he addresses both sin and judgment based on deeds:

Remember, the sins [ hamartiai ] of some people are obvious, leading them to certain judgment. But there are others whose sins [ hamartiai ] will not be revealed until later. In the same way, the good deeds [ erga ] of some people are obvious. And the good deeds [ erga ] done in secret will someday come to light. — 1 Timothy 5:24,25

John 5:28,29 reiterate precisely what the scriptures we just consider teach regarding the resurrection—the dead will stand before the throne and will be judged, some based on their deeds written in the books, and others whose names are written in the book of life will be resurrected to life.

“All those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.”

Thus John 5:28,29 and Revelation 20:12,13 are in harmony, as both are the words of Jesus, the Word, the one who sits on the throne and judges the dead.

I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and they opened books. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works. The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades § gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works. — Revelation 20:12,13

Further, Jesus reassures us in the very next verse, "just as I hear, I judge; and the judgment that I render is righteous". (John 5:30) Thus, the Watchtower's reasoning that "It would also be unreasonable to resurrect people simply for them to be destroyed" is in direct contradiction to Jesus' words that "the judgment that I render is righteous, because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me."

What does Revelation 20:4-6 indicate as to those who will be resurrected on earth?

Rev. 20:4-6: “I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God . . . And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.”

The parentheses are used in NW and Mo to help the reader to connect what follows the parenthetical statement with what precedes it. As clearly stated, it is not “the rest of the dead” who share in the first resurrection. That resurrection is for those who rule with Christ for the thousand years. Does this mean that no others of mankind will live during the thousand years except the ones who rule in heaven with Christ? No; because, if such were the case, it would mean that there was no one on behalf of whom they were serving as priests, and their domain would be a desolate globe.

Even the Watchtower teaches that people survive Armageddon, even if no one but just the faithful Jehovah's Witnesses, to live during the thousand year reign. The scriptures indicate that there are more than just Jehovah's Witnesses who survive, as Daniel 7, referenced above, states regarding the thousand year reign after Armageddon:

The other three beasts had their authority taken from them, but they were allowed to live a while longer… I saw someone like a son of mand coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient One and was led into his presence. He was given authority, honor, and sovereignty over all the nations of the world, so that people of every race and nation and language would obey him. His rule is eternal—it will never end. His kingdom will never be destroyed. — Daniel 7:12-14

Thus the scriptures reassure us that there is no concern "that there was no one on behalf of whom they were serving as priests, and their domain would be a desolate globe".

Who, then, are “the rest of the dead”? They are all those of mankind who died as a result of Adamic sin and those who, though survivors of the great tribulation or those who may be born during the Millennium, need to be relieved of the death-dealing effects of such sin.—Compare Ephesians 2:1.

The Watchtower clearly states that "the rest of the dead" "are those who died" however, they go on to say...

In what sense do they not “come to life” until the end of the thousand years? This does not mean their resurrection. This ‘coming to life’ involves much more than merely existing as humans. It means attaining to human perfection, free from all effects of Adamic sin. Notice that the reference to this in Re 20 verse 5 occurs immediately after the preceding verse says that those who will be in heaven “came to life.” In their case it means life free from all effects of sin; they are even specially favored with immortality. (1 Cor. 15:54) For “the rest of the dead,” then, it must mean the fullness of life in human perfection.

"This does not mean their resurrection." They reason "This ‘coming to life’ involves much more than merely existing as humans. It means attaining to human perfection, free from all effects of Adamic sin." Who ever said that anyone would be coming to life and yet still be under Adamic sin??? And if this does not mean their resurrection, then when is the resurrection?

We should recall that Daniel shows that there is a court which sits just prior to Christ's coming and his kingdom rule on earth which judges all the people who would enter into the thousand year reign using the same books (Daniel 7:10,22 and Revelation 20:4) which are again referenced when the dead are judged after the thousand year reign. (Revelation 20:11-15) If the people entering into the thousand year reign have already been judged, why would they need to be judged again? Revelation 20:7-10 And if "this does not mean their resurrection" when exactly is this resurrection? The Word of God says:

"The rest of the dead didn’t live until the thousand years were finished." — Revelation 20:5

The Watchtower says:

"The general resurrection takes place on earth during Christ’s Millennial Reign". — The Watchtower Reasoning from the Scriptures, rs pp. 333-340

21

The Great Crowd: Why... and Why No Man Is Able to Number...

by AGuest in

jw
friends

john 5:9, 10. how many do these number, this "crowd"?

it is because there is no set number.

a set time for such of that group to come in.

nibbled

The 144,000 are a literal number of literal descendants—the remnant—of the twelve tribes of Israel. That's what the scriptures say, and that's what the only book of the word which belongs to the Word of God says, and he means it.

The great crowd of all nations include those who are of Israel and Judah (remember, Jews were just from the southern kingdom of Judah, and ten tribes of Israel exited stage left and became "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" which the shepherd came for before opening the ministry after his death to all mankind).

Hosea is a prophecy about the nation or kingdom of Israel, not Judah, just Israel. When Jacob died he gave the birthright (rights of first born) to Joseph, more specifically to Joseph's son Ephraim, which included bearing his name, Israel. Judah on the other hand was given the right to kingdom rule. Check out all the promises given to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and you'll see that there's a division of what went where. Thus when the two kingdom's split after Solomon's demise, Judah became "Judah" and the 10-tribes of the north continued to be known as "Israel". When Israel went to fight Judah shortly thereafter we first find the use of "Jew" in the scriptures. (Kings is the history according to Israel, and the Chronicles according to Judah.) Why harp on all this? Because I'm not sure how anyone makes any true sense of the scriptures without recognizing that "the house of Judah" is not the same as "the house of Joseph/Ephraim/Samaria/Israel". Back to Hosea, Israel was no longer shown Mercy, and their name was taken away as they were told that they were no longer God's people. YET read that book. Man is that a torrid love story if ever one was written! Can you take back an adulterous lover who you never rejected? Nope. And look at how passionately he writes about his beloved and unfaithful Israel (after chapter 1).

Also, check that out. Hosea speaks of the scattering of the seed, and the great day of planting. That's a clever play on words—the Yizre’el of Yisra'el. (Remember there is no "J". "J" is just a decorative "I", same we know that God's name is not nor ever was Jehovah.)

Israel was going to go sow their wild oats, spreading their seed all over the sea of mankind.

Read that again and picture it as graphically as you can. Israel was going to be scattered into the people of the nations with whom they'd spread their sperma bringing Abraham's promised seed promises through Joseph/Ephraim into a graphic reality—"You will be the father of a multitude of nations."

You know how those whores have that troublesome habit of calling out the wrong name in bed?

It will be in that day,” says Yehowah,

“that you will call me ‘my husband,’‡

and no longer call me ‘my master.’§

For I will take away the names of the Baals** out of her mouth,

and they will no longer be mentioned by name.

‡2:16: ”Ishi” means literally, “my man”.

§2:16: ”Bali” means literally, “my lord”.

**2:17: ”Baal” means literally “Lord” however it refers to false gods, such as “Baal-Zebub” or “Baal-Gad”, and not to whom Christian's refer to as "the Lord"

††2:22: Yizre’el, “God Sows”, means both “to scatter” and “to plant”.

‡‡2:23: the scattered are planted

§§2:23: the children of Israel, not Judeans

I digressed a bit there, but the point is that this is all directed towards Israel, not Judah (the Jews) and meant to come true, as simply as he put:

I will betroth you to me forever.

Yes, I will betroth you to me in righteousness,

in justice, in loving kindness, and in compassion.

I will even betroth you to me in faithfulness;

and you shall know Yehowah.

The children of Judah and the children of Israel will be gathered together.

Out of the children of Judah and the children of Israel there are 144,000. Someone said there were never 12 tribes, alas there were always 12 tribes, despite all the machinations which the devil attempted to destory God's plan of twelve—twelve sons of Jacob, twelve apostles, twelve is the number even after Judas, right?

The united kingdom of Israel always used a similar fashion when convening in war or military formation.

The Great Crowd is, as you said, of all people and nations, and thus includes descendents from the kingdoms of Israel, and of Judah, and all the other nations of the earth. It's just a marvel that so many of the nations of the earth are populated by actual descendants of the scattered seed of Israel who are 'not his people' because they don't realize that they are 'his people' by birthright.

Of those some are circumcised of heart, and others are not. The same way as some Jews were not circumcised of heart, though circumcised of flesh.

Thus opens the answer to who do the 144,000 rule over on earth, if the great crowd is in heaven—a stumper for Witnesses.

Daniel shows that at Armageddon the kings who live are stripped of their power, but allowed to live a little while longer. Likewise Revelation 20 tells a simple story of the actual events, in a simple linear fashion of the thousand years. Recall you've got the kings stripped but alive, Satan bound and tossed, then the 144k who all died in service brought back, as well as those pictured who came out of the great tribulation dressed the same as the other humans in heaven—all in white. The rest of the dead don't come back to life in any way shape or form until after the thousand years have ended. Meanwhile back on planet earth you have a bunch of people—we could call them Jehovah's Witnesses, plus all others who were slaves to men instead of recognizing Christ's call as head. They fell pray to the false Christ's kingdom—Christendom—and thus he never got to know them. But he and his father are great guys, so those folks get to come to know who the Truth is, and go to the great camp out around Jerusalem. Remember that whole thing of Israel being restored, and people grabbing hold of the skirt of Jews traveling back home to the promised land saying "let us go with you, for we heard that God is with you people"?

Abraham was also promised that his descendants would be as the stars in the sky, if he could number them. While the 144,000 are his descendants, those are very clearly numbered—aren't they? Alas, he was also to become the father of a multitude of nations. (I like when translations use the same rendering throughout—the great multitude of nations, from Genesis to Revelation!) Those are the unnumbered like the stars of the sky—as Daniel says they'll shine brightly!

And yet Abraham was also promised that his descendants would number as the sands of the sea—and the majority of Israel had a earthly hope under the old covenant, while there were a few in Hebrews were discussed who had received the anointing. Those are the people who live through Armageddon and make a choice either to gather as "the nations" in the four corners of the earth to await Satan's release, or to gather as "holy ones" to camp out as God's people around his beloved city awaiting the last events after the thousand years—Satan's destruction, and the descent of the New Jerusalem.

Those are the people that are judged by those in heaven, and ruled over. Christ handles those who are dead, and those bought from among the earth handle those who live through the last days.

The Great Crowd (or multitude of nations) and the 144,000, are in heaven and share a common trait of having been believers of as defined by faith and responded to Christ's invitation. (Many invited but few are chosen to marriage feast of the king's son, but many will come from the east and the west to eat at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven!) Those are the Lamb's bride (144k) who with the great crowd are the body of Christ. (Man and wife become one; or Lamb and wife in this case.) The assembly of Christ and his anointed guests.

The assembly of God is not forgotten on earth—the meek shall inherit the earth—even if they failed to recognize the calling of Christ while they had the time to recognize his voice in faith and thus receive the reward of the faithful in heaven. Both the Great Crowd and the 144k are in heaven before Armageddon, and even earlier before God's wrath is poured out on the earth.

I've been working on simply compiling the scriptures (by chapters or books) into the sequence of events, and began with the thousand years. See here if interested. I would love to discuss scripture with folks who are concerned with what the Word says, apart from what we were taught. I'd love input and feedback!

I don't believe in religion. That's with all thanks to the Watchtower, who taught me all religion was false religion—Christendom. So once I learned that they too were standing in the place of the Son of Man and attempting to act as if God, where he'd already chosen and sent his representative... well that's when I learned that it was true—all religion is false religion. The truth is a man, and he is the Word of God...

Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me."

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

"The Word became human and lived among us. We saw his glory. It was the glory that the Father shares with his only Son, a glory full of kindness and truth."

"Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth."

"I will ask the Father to give you another Helper, to be with you always. He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth.
The world cannot receive him, because it isn't looking for him and doesn't recognize him.
But you know him, because he lives with you now and later will be in you….
When the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth.
For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak whatever He hears.
He will also declare to you what is to come."

From those who believe in "spiritual Israel" or "spiritual Jews" then how is the 144,000 out of all Israel, but the great crowd out of all nations? Wouldn't they be "spiritual Israel" too?

109

San Francisco or Bay Area Members?

by nibbled in

jw
friends

i did a search and came up with some posts related to san francisco, but i couldn't figure out how to find more recent onesthey were from nearly a dozen years ago!

i was wondering if anyone lives around sf, as well as if anyone is around my age?

i'm early 30's.

nibbled

There's the Supper Club, then there's the Last Supper Club.

So after I posted today, I had a meeting with a woman I don't know. At the end of the meeting she asked if she could ask me a personal question—"Sure!" I replied, my curiousity peaked with my blood pressure.

She said that she recalled that at Christmas she'd heard I hadn't gone to the team party because I didn't celebrate and she wanted to ask why?

I sort of shrugged my shoulders and said that I was raised without it.

Then she shifted slightly and suddenly she looked like a sister on the stage sitting at the table for a Theocratic Ministry school part, and I knew what was coming (and the table was the perfect size—if only we weren't dressed in casual clothes the scene would be complete!) and in the JW-perfected demeanor she asked how I was raised, with all respect and politeness for the personal question.

I said that I had been raised as a Jehovah's Witness. She perked up and I wondered which way this moment was about to go...

She said that she had too! And I tilted my head and asked with a tone of curiosity if she was still a Jehovah's Witness. (It's funny, the feeling I had was as if she was about to learn I was disfellowshipped or something.) She explained that she is, technically, and explained her story which meant being apart from the organization for many years, having moved away from drama to our area and simply not picking up the routine here, thanks to questions she'd had and what she'd left behind in the congregation "back home".

How marvelous! Suddenly not only do I have the one person with whom to talk to who is herself seeking answers to questions (so a stage or so behind where I am now) but I also have a partner-in-crime with whom I hope to meet others with. There was something scary about inviting strangers to do something, but I'm dying to meet people and have someone know me, rather than all my friends who know nothing about my Watched life!

Thus, the first invitation to the Last Supper Club.

I'll have to see if she'd be interested in joining, but I have the courage to open an invitation. It seems traveb, open mind, wantarevolution are immediately local, as well as LisaRose and AGuest a little further drive away. Are you all comfortable with meeting up? Please send me a private message with your comfort level on meeting people—whether that's you'd be happy to join me for dinner, but not with an open group (protecting identity) or you're open and with the group, or not at all.

I am most interested in those couples mentioned first in the list as it sounds like you're in the same 'profile' as I am (only you guys have a +1 for the journey), and are 'seekers' with questions and faith and family ties "in the truth" which bind you in some manner.

My co-worker's story is nearly a mirror image of where I was a year ago in learning who the Truth is.

Even if you all aren't able to make it, I'm so happy to know that I am not alone! :)

I'm thinking a bring-a-dish style? Or I can do pasta! There will be bread and wine, and the idea is straight up first-century classy—we won't get drunk but we'll have a great time, and you know—"where two or more..."

So excited!!! Let's make a plan for February?

PS No one is disqualified; I show love towards all, even if it's ' especially to those in the family of faith'.

109

San Francisco or Bay Area Members?

by nibbled in

jw
friends

i did a search and came up with some posts related to san francisco, but i couldn't figure out how to find more recent onesthey were from nearly a dozen years ago!

i was wondering if anyone lives around sf, as well as if anyone is around my age?

i'm early 30's.

nibbled

wantarevolution I sent you a PM.

Open mind have you met wantarevolution?

LisaRose not sure I need a mom type, but love sounds good! Shall we arrange to have tea? I can go where BART can take me! :)

Balaamsass are you agnostic/atheist or a believer? ... and your wife? Will you be visiting SF anytime soon?

AGuest not sure I need a mom, but thanks drawing the lines clearly! :) I'll check out that link. What "choice" are you referring to? I was chosen, and accepted the invitiation. ... Side note, hilarious. I'm at work, someone just walked into my area and the area is quiet. He said "where is everyone today?" and as he walked away he said "Did we have the rapture and no one told me?" So very out of the blue! I busted out laughing. I needed that.

Thank you all who responded, and even those not close. If we get PMs do those go to our email? I welcome meeting SF visitors.

We live in an area if I wore a t-shirt which said I <3 Jesus, or I believe in God, it'd probably be taken for an "ironic" t-shirt. :)

109

San Francisco or Bay Area Members?

by nibbled in

jw
friends

i did a search and came up with some posts related to san francisco, but i couldn't figure out how to find more recent onesthey were from nearly a dozen years ago!

i was wondering if anyone lives around sf, as well as if anyone is around my age?

i'm early 30's.

nibbled

Hi Open Mind! Thanks for digging up that thread. I'll go through and read each of the responses. Saw people go together in Tahoe? My heart lept with hope! :)

I'm a single female, young 30's living in SF. I'm a professional working in a common area for Bay Area employees. Grew up far from Cali though now I've been out here for many many years. It's been half as many of that that I've been apart from the org—until recently. Strange events brought me back in 'officially' and I officially realized that it wasn't the truth. It's been a fast process over a little more time than a year. As my family pretty much ignores me anyway (since I only want to talk about the real truth) I am considering my options so I don't have to feel like someone having to hide my identity. I feel stuck in a strange limbo—6 or 8 years of making tons of friends who aren't "friends" who don't really know about me, and what I believe, and thus I feel stiffled, especially in the atheist areas I've lived in where people believe religion is a disease as much as the WT thinks apostates are mentally diseased.

During my long time out God and I weren't on speaking terms. I couldn't understand why he'd abandoned me. But was respectfully of his decision and likewise respected being 'disowned' from my family.

I would never have stepped foot in another church, so it's interesting that the strange events which brought me back to the WT made everything so crystal clear.

I'd never read the scriptures through cover to cover before.

Now I have, and no wonder what I was taught never seemed to make sense!!!

I don't believe in religion. I believe in God, and God's son.

I have a lot to talk about, but need to find people to do that with. It's hard to find folks interested. I'm turned off by religion bashing (ours or others) and am more interested in the actual content. What I read makes total sense—but it seems no one else believes what I believe... but kind of hard to figure that out when you have to protect your identify and can't find an appropriate forum.

I get the feeling most people who have left the religion have also left faith entirely. Anyone in SF who still believes, even like me, that to truly believe is to be free?

109

San Francisco or Bay Area Members?

by nibbled in

jw
friends

i did a search and came up with some posts related to san francisco, but i couldn't figure out how to find more recent onesthey were from nearly a dozen years ago!

i was wondering if anyone lives around sf, as well as if anyone is around my age?

i'm early 30's.

nibbled

I did a search and came up with some posts related to San Francisco, but I couldn't figure out how to find more recent ones—they were from nearly a dozen years ago! :)

I was wondering if anyone lives around SF, as well as if anyone is around my age? I'm early 30's. I have more than a 1,000 Facebook friends thanks to having been out for a while, but I'm lonely for someone to talk to who understands the background we all came from.

Thanks!