reading the first couple of awakes for 2013 i think there is a pattern developing.. they have the regular "could it have happened by chance" article on something amazing in nature but they are also interviewing a scientist who is also a witness.
this is a pretty interesting tack on a number of levels.. firstly it is sending out the implicit message that "look, this educated person accepts creation, the flood and every other account that is at odds with generally accepted science, so that should give you confidence that you are right as well".
secondly, as a magazine designed for public comsumption is suggests to non-witnesses that there are many well educated people who accept the bible.
I agree with everything you wrote konceptual99.
I made an interesting observation in the german issue. In the interview with Massimo Tistarelli they adress him formally, as if he wasn't a witness. But he's baptised since 1992. It is just an hypocratic way of pretending some kind of respect for Science, while there is absolutley none. Hard to believe that Tistarelli doesn't realize how he's beeing (ab)used.
The first vid is great, but I don't like the second one. Tyson is right about not labeling or categorizing people just by a term like atheist or theist.
But his comparision of atheists to non-golfers or non-skiers flaws. I don't ski and I don't care about giving this fact a certain name or label. But in that moment, someone came up and told me: You have to ski - in that moment I'll became a non-skier.
i love the mind of g.k.chesterton!.
he has a wonderful way of looking at things and then getting you to see them by saying something simple.. chesterton was a very creative man who was able to take on every subject with wit and turn things inside out.. as wiki describes him:.
he wrote on philosophy, ontology, poetry, plays, journalism, public lectures and debates, literary and art criticism, biography, christian apologetics, and fiction, including fantasy and detective fiction.. .
Thanks Terry! I've enjoyed the reading.
Moshe - There are a lot of authors (mostly 18th and 19th Century), who had a terrible attitude towards woman and although ducked out of any kind of work. But still they were good authors and thinkers. Schoppenhauer for example. Outstanding philosopher, but what he thought about women is awful.
once upon a time, many years ago, bethel - and the factory in particular - was a nasty, sweatshop hellhole.
they could hardly keep up with all the young guys leaving.
bad attitudes were everywhere.. in response, most guys complained, blew off steam, drank beer and chased hot sisters.
A good observation. I remember one guy in german bethel, who was so fanatic that he wanted to leave the car, if the driver passed the speed limit just a little. And sometimes he actually did. Then he left bethel all of a sudden. A few month he later he rushed in the monday evening watchtowerstudy with a big sign in his hand, that said something like "I was a slave of the wachtower" or similar. He tried to escape the brothers from the standby duty by running through the big kingdomhall. Finally they fetched him and walked him out.
In my oppinion a lot of these overzealous guys in bethel have kind of a mental problem, that they try to compensate by beeing an 150 percent witness and bethelite. That might work for a certain amount of time. But not forever. When these guys break, very often they break for good.
But I don't think you can draw conclusions from these observations to the witnesses in general.
before going to work, i just checked on jw.org if the annual meeting report with the "new light" now is published in other languages too.
nothing, only on the english site.
not even in spanish.
wha happened? - The "new light" is not that new anymore and the report about the annual meeting on jw.org is up since a few weeks already.
I just wanted to mention, that you still will find the report only on the english site. Obvisiouly the change is not important enough, to let all the witnesses know about as soon as possible.
Two-class "food at the proper time"
i`m only halfway through chapter 4 and enjoying what i have read so far .so why am i asking for peoples comments now ?
the reason i have is this : i wish i had done something like this when i first was approached by the witnesses ,i beleive i would have been more informed to make some enlightened decisisions that would eventually shape my future .. whereas not doing so i spent the next 33 years a slave of the watchtower , and not just me but my wife and children , not that i`m suggesting i would be a slave of richard dawkins , but i can weigh up the pros and cons as i progress through his book ,then hopefully i can draw the right conclusions , if their are any.. smiddy.
.
Perry wrote:
Since God is omnipresent, an atheist would by necessity have to be omnipresent himself to be able to declare that God doesn't exist, having looked everywhere for him and finding none.
The paradox is of course is that if the atheist was omnipresent so as to be able to truthfully back up his claim, his declaration would immediately falsify his charge because being omnipresent himself.... he would in fact be God! This argument isn't valid, because you just can turn it around. Someone who claims that god is omnipresent, has to be omnipresent to, having looked everywhere for him and finding him in every place (even in Governing Body Meetings).
before going to work, i just checked on jw.org if the annual meeting report with the "new light" now is published in other languages too.
nothing, only on the english site.
not even in spanish.
Before going to work, I just checked on jw.org if the annual meeting report with the "new light" now is published in other languages too. Nothing, only on the english site. Not even in spanish. So all spanish speaking witnesses in the USA must feel kind of excluded, besides all other jw that don't speak english all over the world.
I've expected at least in the main languages they would put something on their site.
So the brothers here in germany have to read apostate sites like these: http://www.sektenausstieg.net/read/11659 to learn what they currently believe.
Great!
PS: Sorry, don't know how to make the link clickable.
i`m only halfway through chapter 4 and enjoying what i have read so far .so why am i asking for peoples comments now ?
the reason i have is this : i wish i had done something like this when i first was approached by the witnesses ,i beleive i would have been more informed to make some enlightened decisisions that would eventually shape my future .. whereas not doing so i spent the next 33 years a slave of the watchtower , and not just me but my wife and children , not that i`m suggesting i would be a slave of richard dawkins , but i can weigh up the pros and cons as i progress through his book ,then hopefully i can draw the right conclusions , if their are any.. smiddy.
.
The book is very interesting and a good read (but Hitchens is far better on the subject of religion). Much more interesting are the reactions of many beliefers. Some made good points, because Dawkins is sometimes to superficial and not blessed with a very deep knowledge of teachings and christian history. But lots of them have obvisiouly never read the book and are just bashing on the evil atheist without kowing what they are talking about. So everyone who alleges Dawkins he doesn't really know what he's talking about should ask themselfe, if he really understands atheism and why people think the way Dawkins does.
Dawkins Book "The greatest show on earth" is a lot better. It's about evolution and there he knows the ropes.
i'm reading here almost every day (kind of adicted i think).
but due to the fact, that my english isn't very good, i abstain from commenting most of the time.. nevertheless i'd like to share some thoughts with you.. .
when i learned the tatt over a year ago i quickly became an atheist.
Thanks to everyone for your thoughts. I appreciate it very much. There is a lot to think about. On almost every comment you gave, you could start an interesting conversation.
It is impossible to go into every subject your mentioned, but I'll try at least a few.
yalbmert99 - very interesting exposition. I've thought about it before. The ultimate cause which is beyond our comprehension and is ineffable. But even when it exists, it is an absract concept that doesn't really affect me as a small human with my, in relation to the whole universe, insignificant questions about my own beeing. This thought is rather satisfying in a rational way that leaves the last unanswered questions to an relaxed curiosity.
designs - I don't want to leave footprints. I'd like to keep going.
mr.freeze/cofty/sizemik - I've read a lot about this thought: we have been dead an eternity before our birth, so why bother to go back to this state. But there is a great difference between the eternity which precedes our existence and the eternity that will follow after our death. As persons capable of thinking we can fill the time before we came to existence. We can learn so much about our past, the past of our family, of our city, of our country, of the world, of the universe. Even we weren't existent at a certain moment in history, we can consider the remains and imagine to be a part of. But there are no remains of the future. The future is a story yet untold. Up to a certain point we can recover the past, but never the future. The eternity before our birth is an infinite possibility to gain knowledge and experience, the eternity after our death is just a loss.
snare & racket - I don't miss wether the Jehovah of the wittnesses, nor the jealous and disgusting god of the bible. It is, like you mentioned, this kind of father-figure, the one who cares, the one who guarantees a good outcome, even when everything is desperate. Very often I think it would have been better to been raised in a family of non- believers or such as the family of my girl-friend. They are protestants, but never imposed their beliefe in their children. They had to make up their minds on their own and never were infected by the unrelaistic concept of an everlasting life.
And you are right: Science is awesome. Life is awesome.
new chapter - I've read "The lord is no shephard" by Hitchens. The Book about mortality is unknown to me. But I will try to get it.
Talking of a good read: The mentioned Julian Barnes wrote an exellent book about death called: "Nothing to be frightend of". In my oppinion the best book ever written about the subject.But maybe Hitchens will top it. I'm going to tell you, when I've read it.
outlaw - enjoying your posts - each and every time!!
botchtowersociety - I never really understood the term "love" like the jw use it. They said we should love field service - I hated it. They said: we should love the people in our territory - I didn't like them. they said we should love Jehovah - I didn't really feel it.
The first time I got a glimpse what it means to love was when I read 1984 by George Orwell. At the end of the book, when the main character was torched and mutilated for thought-crimes, but at the end released to go on with his life, he felt some kind of love for his oppressors. It is the love you feel for somebody who is hitting you all day long and then stops just for a few minutes.
Phizzy - Clapton is still alive or did I miss something. (O.K. he is god, so death doesn't bother him at all :-) ) There is a good song of Alan Parsons Project in which they pray: Bring back Elvis...bring back Lennon etc. I would like to have some drinks with Bon Scott. Highway to Hell was my first touch with Rock`n Roll.
goldensky - Love your comment. Thank you for your kind words. My native language is german, the second english, the third spanish, because I was living in South America and Spain for a couple of years. My problem is that I like to express myself in english a s good as in german when it comes to such significant matters like we are discussing in this thread (or in many others which are very interesting). Quickly I'm strechted to my limits and feel kind of handicapped. Very often I prefer to stay quiet instead of posting something that might be missunderstood.
What you discribe is what I hope to gain someday: Feel the greatfullness of life without expecting answers to be the foundation of it.
John Mann - Very interesting thoughts! In fact, I'm not afraid of death, I'm frightend of dying. Of the moment you realize, when you close your eyes it will be forever. Of the dizzeness when your circulation collapses, of the numbness of your extremeties, the loose of sight and hearing. The sensation of vanishing. And no cushion to rest your head on. Thats what I'm afraid of.
Once again - thank you
Borges
i'm reading here almost every day (kind of adicted i think).
but due to the fact, that my english isn't very good, i abstain from commenting most of the time.. nevertheless i'd like to share some thoughts with you.. .
when i learned the tatt over a year ago i quickly became an atheist.
I'm reading here almost every day (kind of adicted I think). But due to the fact, that my english isn't very good, I abstain from commenting most of the time.
Nevertheless I'd like to share some thoughts with you.
When I learned the TATT over a year ago I quickly became an atheist. I've read so many books about the bible, about science and evolution that there was no room left for any kind of belief. On one side it was a great relief. No more fear of dying in armagedon, no more bothering of a bad conscience, no more bad feelings because of considering myself as a sinner, who needs grace or forgiveness.
On the other hand I'm struggeling almost every day with the fact, that one day I have to die forever. It is a bit crazy. More than 40 years as a wittness I was afraid of beeing wiped out by angry Jehovah. No I know, this won't happen. But still I have to die some day and so the reslut will be the same. When I'm gone, I'm gone for good.
I'm not a spiritual man, never was, even in my zealous years as bethelite and elder. Almost everthing I did, I did because of my eagerness to live for ever. Life is such a precious thing and I love everything that is perceptible to the senses and everthing that challenges my brain. I know all the arguments why an everlasting life is not just impossible but allthough not desirable. And maybe it would be hell at some point, but this doesn't affect my longing for an ever ongoing future.
So I find myself in a bifid situation: freed from any kind of superstition and guilt instilling concepts that insult my intelligence and my humantity, but living in the cold as a metaphysical homeless (speaking metaphorically - I've got a lot of things that makes my life worth living. It is just the thought of the unevitable).
If somebody showed me a proof that god exists, I would like to believe. I would love to believe. But I'm convinced this proof doesn't exist. Besides all the facts about the bible, all the scientific facts and the suffering religion brought over mankind, there are two arguments why it is impossible for me to believe in any kind of a supreme beeing: confusion & mystery. If there is a god, he must be uncontradicted in every way und understandable for everyone.
Julian Barnes, a well known british novelist once put in words what I'm feeling. He said:
"I don't beliefe in god, but I do miss him"
Maybe some of you share this kind of feelings.
