I've never read Crisis of Conscience. Could someone briefly describe some of his observations that clashed with his moral compass?
Celestial
JoinedPosts by Celestial
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Ray Franz - Crisis of Conscience
by Celestial ini've never read crisis of conscience.
could someone briefly describe some of his observations that clashed with his moral compass?
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Did you miss out on a career opportunity when you were a JW?
by moshe inopportunities seemed to be advertised everywhere when i was a young man, it was hard to decide on one.
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Celestial
My father was an entrepreneur that initiated a successful chemical company. He sold the company and accepted a job as a chemist in the company laboratory so he could devote more time to the family and the congregation. Some members of the family (dependents) got disfellowshipped so he had to step down from being an elder. He ended up starting another chemical company, but it wasn't nearly as successful as the first one. He at times hinted to me that he regretted selling the first one.
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Mr. Unthank and Theocratic Warfare
by Celestial inafter reading the threads on this forum, the collapse of mr. unthank's crusade against the watchtower society seems to have some people riled up.
i haven't followed the outworking of events that led up to the case's dismissal by the public prosecutor.
i did notice that there was a formal motion to charge the "faithful and discreet slave" and prosecute this entity as "corporate accused.. .
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Celestial
This isn't “WTS twisting and spinning.” I just voiced an opinion based on what I've been exposed to.
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Latest Watchtower page 30... They have some nerve to put this!
by TimothyT inone thing that i have always noticed even when i was a jw is that the jw org has lots and lots and lots of rules for allsorts of stupid petty rules which make no difference.
when you read the bible you see how they are clearly in the wrong here and are acting like the pharisees themselves, who imposed so much pressure on others to conform to the law.
am i missing something here!?!?
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Celestial
Ah yes, that's right. When you have nothing to fall back on, I must be a liar right? Is English your second language? Or your third? I already explained how and why I knew what the blood doctrine entailed as the subject came up time and time again when my sister needed surgery. It's not too difficult to comprehend when you hear the elders talking to your parents about it and when you hear them say how they 'must remain faithful to Jehovah's Organization' if and when the subject of blood came up during one of my sisters' many surgeries and how even if she died, it would only be a few years before my parents saw her again because The End was coming in 1975.
So please don't try and tell me what I could and I could not understand as a child you moron, because you haven't a frigging clue what you're talking about.
You present an image of the core value system of Jehovah's Witnesses as soulless, brainless and emotionally deficient. This disparaging description of the “higher powers” that mold the personality of Jehovah's Witnesses may or may not be consistent with your memories of your former self as one of Jehovah's Witnesses. From what you said about your family, you were a “born in,” so your submission to the “truth” was involuntary. Your involuntary submission to the theocratic order of Jehovah's Witnesses may justify your unrestrained presentation of this religion as a lethal “social menace.”
If questioned, the vast majority of individuals in the scientific community would describe the doctrine held by Jehovah's Witnesses on the “vital issue” of blood and its uses as a warped philosophy. They would uphold this opinion whether the stance taken by Jehovah's Witnesses was a “Biblical rule” or not. That's why the ex-JWs that voluntarily internalized this doctrine as “true believers” and now portray it as deadly theology are pretty disturbing. -
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Mr. Unthank and Theocratic Warfare
by Celestial inafter reading the threads on this forum, the collapse of mr. unthank's crusade against the watchtower society seems to have some people riled up.
i haven't followed the outworking of events that led up to the case's dismissal by the public prosecutor.
i did notice that there was a formal motion to charge the "faithful and discreet slave" and prosecute this entity as "corporate accused.. .
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Celestial
After reading the threads on this forum, the collapse of Mr. Unthank's crusade against the Watchtower Society seems to have some people riled up. I haven't followed the outworking of events that led up to the case's dismissal by the public prosecutor.
I did notice that there was a formal motion to charge the "faithful and discreet slave" and prosecute this entity as "corporate accused.”
According to the Watchtower society, “the faithful and discreet slave” is the earthly (physical) aspect of spiritual order (a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation) anointed by God that shares in the direction of his people and will ascend to immortality in a supernatural realm upon their demise.
Just as all members of ancient Israel formed one “servant,” so also all anointed Christians on earth at any one time form one “faithful and discreet slave.” Watchtower 11/01/2007
The Watchtower Society isn't the first religion to incorporate the idea that an order of deities and transcendent humans exercise authority over their subordinates. This belief is common in esoteric organizations.
In magical orders, the “secret chiefs” is a spiritual hierarchy responsible for overseeing the operations of esoteric organizations. Several occultists claimed to belong to or to have contacted these supernatural beings and made these communications known to others.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermetic_Order_of_the_Golden_Dawn
The Golden Dawn system was based on hierarchy and initiation like the Masonic Lodges; however women were admitted on an equal basis with men. The "Golden Dawn" was the first of three Orders, although all three are often collectively referred to as the "Golden Dawn". The First Order taught esoteric philosophy based on the Hermetic Qabalah and personal development through study and awareness of the four Classical Elements as well as the basics of astrology, tarot divination, and geomancy. The Second or "Inner" Order, the Rosae Rubeae et Aureae Crucis (the Ruby Rose and Cross of Gold), taught proper magic, including scrying, astral travel, and alchemy. The Third Order was that of the "Secret Chiefs", who were said to be highly skilled; they supposedly directed the activities of the lower two orders by spirit communication with the Chiefs of the Second Order.
A person has to rely on an organization's religious beliefs to define the respective roles of an organization's spiritual hierarchy and thus may have limited or no relevance in a legal proceeding. If you attempt to charge an organization's spiritual hierarchy with a crime in a legal proceeding, you may just end up chasing a bunch of ghosts, because the entity has no formal identity in a secular court.
An interesting aspect of the “faithful and discreet slave” is its formal identity is limited in scope even within Jehovah's organization. There's no formal appointment to the “faithful and discreet slave's” membership status by anyone in the organization. There's no membership list held by anyone at Bethel headquarters of those that comprise “the faithful and discreet slave.” This has something to do with why the Watchtower society's lawyers stated they do not exist as an "incorporated body," nor do they exist as a tangible "body" of Christians subject to prosecution, but as a “theological arrangement.”
For future reference, if there's a decision to prosecute the Watchtower society by any person(s), it may be best to issue a formal injunction that's definitive in a court of law.
Being adapted to modern conditions and requirements and being obliged to render to Caesar Caesar’s things, the visible theocratic organization today has a legally established service agency, the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, incorporated in 1884 under the laws of the state of Pennsylvania, United States of America. (Matt. 22:21) It is with this legal corporation that the governing body of the “faithful and discreet slave” class is closely associated for administrative, legal and publishing purposes, to see that “this good news of the kingdom” is preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations. Watchtower 09/01/1954
I don't know why this case against the Watchtower society collapsed, but waging theocratic warfare in a secular court didn't help any. That does nothing but weaken the credibility of the prosecution. -
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Latest Watchtower page 30... They have some nerve to put this!
by TimothyT inone thing that i have always noticed even when i was a jw is that the jw org has lots and lots and lots of rules for allsorts of stupid petty rules which make no difference.
when you read the bible you see how they are clearly in the wrong here and are acting like the pharisees themselves, who imposed so much pressure on others to conform to the law.
am i missing something here!?!?
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Celestial
Mary, I didn't have the unwavering faith in the resurrection as one of Jehovah's Witnesses so I may not have rejected a blood transfusion. There's mention made in the Mosaic law about the misuse of blood. Under this same law King David murdered Uriah (which is obviously more serious than the misuse of blood) and was forgiven.
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Latest Watchtower page 30... They have some nerve to put this!
by TimothyT inone thing that i have always noticed even when i was a jw is that the jw org has lots and lots and lots of rules for allsorts of stupid petty rules which make no difference.
when you read the bible you see how they are clearly in the wrong here and are acting like the pharisees themselves, who imposed so much pressure on others to conform to the law.
am i missing something here!?!?
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Celestial
This is no different than a Witness who chooses to die rather than accept a blood transfusion, because they've been taught by the Governing Body, that if they do accept a transfusion, Jehovah will murder them at Armageddon.
This is dumb. I've never believed something like this, that God condemns people to Armageddon if you make a mistake, even if it's serious, although the idea of Armageddon in itself leads some to believe the God of the Bible is a sadist. But then again, so does the hellfire doctrine. You say I'm an idiot because I said I didn't believe something irrational. Some of the most intelligent people I know used to be members of Christendom and have become atheists. They believe they were mistaken, not irrational.
I guess it's ironic if you feel you were taken in by a “million irrational beliefs.” Did you not have the ability to articulate when you were a Witness? -
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Latest Watchtower page 30... They have some nerve to put this!
by TimothyT inone thing that i have always noticed even when i was a jw is that the jw org has lots and lots and lots of rules for allsorts of stupid petty rules which make no difference.
when you read the bible you see how they are clearly in the wrong here and are acting like the pharisees themselves, who imposed so much pressure on others to conform to the law.
am i missing something here!?!?
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Celestial
Really? What's the difference between the people that were forced to drink the Kool-Aid provided by Jim Jones & Co. and the thousands of Witnesses who are forced to commit suicide by not accepting a blood transfusion? There.isn't.one.
Survivor Odell Rhodes of the Jonestown incident, stated that while the poison was squirted in some children's mouths, there was no panic or emotional outburst and people looked like they were "in a trance." These were obviously some sick people. I don't know if suicide or murder for a “higher purpose” was a part of the belief system of the People's Temple, but it sounds like the Temple members would do whatever Jim Jones said because of an irrational belief that he was inspired by a higher power. I never believed anything that irrational as one of Jehovah's Witnesses.
I can try and understand the theory of mind-control when an extreme set of circumstances presents itself like Jonestown or the Heaven's Gate cult, but I can't relate to it. The theory of mind-control is potentially harmful. It absolves someone of personal responsibility for their actions.
You said the blood issue was non-scriptural. Jehovah's Witnesses may be mistaken, but they believe that it is. -
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Why did you become one of Jehovah's Witnesses?
by Celestial inany other reason than the arbitrary explanation that you were brainwashed or seduced by a millenarianist doomsday cult?.
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Celestial
Why do I feel my inquiry presses buttons?
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Why did you become one of Jehovah's Witnesses?
by Celestial inany other reason than the arbitrary explanation that you were brainwashed or seduced by a millenarianist doomsday cult?.
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Celestial
I was 10 years old and I didn't have a choice.
I was a born-in. I was hoping to hear from those that weren't.