proplog2

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Posts by proplog2

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  37

  The Christian Message - inspired of fear?

  by Mandybp in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  what do you thibnk of the christian message as compared to jw message, both are ruled by fear aren't they?

  if you don't love jehovah you will die at armageddon, if you don't love christ you won't go to heaven you'll go to hell.

  lovely.

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  proplog2

  If religion isn't about life and death then it is a waste of time. Fear is an essential emotion. Without fear you WILL die. Mostly it is moderated to "caution" or "vigilance" "Planning" is a systematic consideration of steps that avoid significant risks.

  Religion has become the repository of "fuzzy" rules that helped humans avoid a lot of long term consequences. It is easier to conceptualize the certain punishment from a pesonal GOD than to evaluate the long term consequences of cheating on your mate, stealing something that has been put in your trust, or even relaxing too much.

  Fear tempers the excesses of love, rage, & curiosity. Fear is the beginning of "thought". Psalm 111:10 "The fear of Jehovah is the beginning of wisdom"
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  22

  What have you read that helped you?

  by yesidid in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  my journey out began with this and other ''eyeopening" internet sites [thank you simon].

  i have since read ray franz's two books and greg stafford's "dissertations".

  although i am very grateful to have found out that my years of questions had a solid base and i now see the wts for what it is, i have decided i need more positives in my life.

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  proplog2

  New Guide to Rational LIving Albert Ellis

  Science & Sanity Albert Korzybski
• 
  15

  I watched the CBS news

  by DJ in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  long segment.

  i'm sad that they did not report the fact that where there is no law to report molesters......the jw's don't.

  that being said would have made an impact.

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  proplog2

  I think Bill's glory is fading. I tried to look at it as an ordinary person with no knowledge of JW's and it didn't stir me. In fact with SARS, Terrorism, War in Iraq, Economy in the toilet- I would have probably refilled my coffee cup on this one.
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  2

  Witness Apologists

  by stevieb1 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  with so much going wrong with the wts why do intelligent individuals such as greg stafford and rolf furuli strive to defend it of their own volition?

  secondly, have any ex-jw's who have read stafford's books almost been convinced that wt doctrine is bible based after reading hs argumentation?

  it is my understanding from my own research into the wt that most witness academics eventually leave the organization as a result of their research, even when they originally set out to defend it.

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  proplog2

  Metatron posted something about the "slippery slope" syndrome. Apologists are really in the process of defending their beliefs from their own attacks. The process like any obsession takes on a life of its own.

  Take Bill Bowen. At this point he NEEDS the witnesses to hold to their policy on child molestation. If the Watchtower did exactly as he wished he would have to find some other cause.

  Some people really get off on having some kind of intellectual conflict going on.
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  10

  Concern or Criticism

  by Ray6 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  an elder in my hall is always so concerned about my teenage daughter( why doesn't she comment as much as her brother, why did she miss the meeting, why this, why that).

  he keeps his attention on my wife and her friendship with another sister in the congregation and he is constantly hounding every move i make.

  i feel the love is lacking.

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  proplog2

  Ray:

  -no family atmosphere , just jealousy, competition, envy, backbiting, criticism,criticism,criticism, I feel disgusted and discouraged.

  It sounds like a family atmosphere to me. Once you get behind closed doors ANYWHERE - you're going to find craziness. Some here would like you to think that this is unique to JW's or that it is somehow worse at the Kingdom Hall.

  Humans love the kind of politics, wrangling, competition, envy, power struggles, cheating, coalitions, cliques that emerge from a close community of about 100-120. You see, that's exactly the size of group that our Bonobo-like ancestors evolved in. Our brains can't deal with groups much larger because we couldn't keep track of all the sublte transactions and figure out where we rank in the hierarchy.

  These are the things we sit back and watch on TV after a hard day of politics, wrangling, competition etc. Soap operas, cop shows, courtroom, boardroom,reality TV are entertaining because they mirror our daily struggle.

  If you like the organization of people you are hanging with you can help bandage the wounded. Or pick another group of people. Chances are if they are a closeknitt community they are going to end up in the same kind of territorial fighting. You see it on line in this group. Some like Bill Bowen other hate Bill Bowen. Bill was a stubborn player in his local congregation and he goes out of his way to bully people in his OWN organization. Some like Farkel - Others hate Farkel (actually I don't know anyone who hates Farkel)

  Leave the organization - but leave it for the right reasons - doctrinal error. If you join another group you'll have to start at the bottom and claw your way to a higher level on the ladder.

  As you can see - I'm not much of a fan of those who just want to moan & groan about not enough LUUUUUV.
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  37

  What About The Soul?

  by Francois in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i don't recall that we've ever gotten into this issue; maybe we did and i just don't remember.

  if so, it won't hurt to revisit it; if not, it's way past time that we did.. we were all trained to believe that humankind does not have a soul, but that we are souls.

  this teaching came from the spiritual geniuses abiding at jw headquarters in brooklyn, likely assisted by their undefined "spirit-led" descision making activities and with help from someone's secret decoder ring with the secret compartment.. personally, i have 86-ed that particular piece of nonsense a long time ago.

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  proplog2

  Metatron:

  You are embarking on the same journey as those who are seeking someone at the controls of the universe.

  You've heard of the "God of the Gaps"? As science has progressed and explained more and more natural phenomena - theists have latched on little unexplored or at least unexplained things that must be the "realm" of God's influence. The last book the Watchtower printed on the subject pretty much has God operating in the very narrow region of the balance between the strong and weak force.

  Ancient man thought that the center of control was the "heart". Then the "brain". Now it seems they are looking for something bigger than DNA but smaller than a synapse.

  As others have said - what's the consequence? If there are disembodied souls floating around - what do they do? Are we supposed to take spirit mediums and ouija boards seriously?

  I would love to think that when I died I could linger around completely invisible. It would make death worth while to think that I could spend eternity as a voyeur. I love to watch.

  Scopophiliac Class
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  38

  Do we have double standards about JWs?

  by Skeptic in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  do we have a double standard as far as jws are concerned?

  yes, i know that their claims of being better than any other religion sets them up for higher expectations.

  and yes, generally jws are judgemental.

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  proplog2

  I have trouble with organizations - period. Running any organization is a nasty business. Bad decisions are made as often as good decisions. Some bad decisions result in good. Some good decisions result in bad. Policy is seldom thought out carefully. A lot of policy is justified because "that's the way we've always done it".

  The Watchtower like the Catholic Church claim exclusivity. I have no problem with organizations making that claim - BUT then they must defend that claim. Organizations are always a work in progress. My only problem with JW's is that they have shut down all significant avenues for individuals to have input on organizational decisions.
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  29

  Is It Possible To See A Bethel Uprising In The Future?

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  in the late 70's, there were a lot of free thinkers in bethel.

  they had a measure of independence.

  then they cleaned house.

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  proplog2

  The Great Tribulation is going to begin with a nuclear attack on New York City. Bethel will be gone too. Jehovah's Witnesses will have to figure out what they are going to do at that point.
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  37

  What About The Soul?

  by Francois in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i don't recall that we've ever gotten into this issue; maybe we did and i just don't remember.

  if so, it won't hurt to revisit it; if not, it's way past time that we did.. we were all trained to believe that humankind does not have a soul, but that we are souls.

  this teaching came from the spiritual geniuses abiding at jw headquarters in brooklyn, likely assisted by their undefined "spirit-led" descision making activities and with help from someone's secret decoder ring with the secret compartment.. personally, i have 86-ed that particular piece of nonsense a long time ago.

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  proplog2

  Soul was ancient man's attempt to explain what "moves" animates us(anima=soul) . They thought there was something "in" us that moved us like a hand in a puppet.

  Psychology struggled with the "mind/body" split. The root of Psychology is Psyche. Psychology is really "soulology". With the understanding that our thinking goes on in our brain we imagined a little man sitting at the controls and pushing buttons.

  Modern psychology looks at the "organism as a whole" without the dualism of mind/body. There is nobody at the controls. There are no controls. So the Watchtower comes pretty close to the modern scientific concept of "soul". The Hebrews were basically on the right track - although Greek Platonic thinking eventuatlly impinged on their ideas.

  Tertulian wrote a treatise on the soul that is very Aristotlean. Aristotle saw man as part of nature and the soul as the expression of the living body.

  I don't believe in a soul separate from the body. Such a thing has never been proven scientifically. Especially with our knowledge of cybernetics and computers we don't need to believe in the backward ideas of ancient religions about how living things move and behave.

  Our concept of immortatlity, soul, etc. is quite egotistical. We're so concerned that we will maintain our "ego/identity" in some sort of perpetual process. I don't think any of us are that important that we should be around forever. But enjoy your life and don't forget to leave a few offspring behind to keep the experiment going. They might enjoy their lives as much as you enjoy yours.
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  30

  Could the world "go back in time" 20+ years?

  by Simon in

  1. social
  2. current

  .

  the situation with sars in asia appears to be worsening and travel restrictions alone are likely to have a devastating effect on the immediate asian economy (singapore, taiwan, hong kong etc...) as a lot of these rely on trade and travel.. i wonder if the world could now cope with going back 20+ years to a time when fewer people travelled and international travel was a rarity for the majority of people.. nowadays we take for granted that we can jump on a plane and jet off to faraway lands ... but what if we couldn't?

  i think one "benefit" (bad word) to sars is that it could put a brake on globalisation which i see as a bad thing.

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  proplog2

  SIMON:

  Back on the subject. A lot of air travel is unnecessary. There have been articles about how more companies, because of SARS, are using their teleconferencing capabilities and getting along just fine.

  Even technical problems on board space stations are worked out through teleconferencing.

  This is a good test on how much humans are now interconnected.

  Microbes that are too fatal to their hosts die out quickly. The reason influenza spreads so widely is that its mortality rate is low. Because SARS is so deadly the alarm has sounded & humans will mobilize all their social defenses as well as technical skills to combat it.

  It is possible to stop SARS with quarantine. And I believe they will. In 3 to 6 months we will be talking about our victory over SARS just like we talk about the rapid war in Iraq.