| Every witness I know under the age of 80 has a cell phone. Like another poster said, they're not the Amish, for heaven's sake. |
Posts by acsot
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25Cell phones.....
by lavendar ini was talking with my jw relative, and the topic of cell phones briefly came up.
i got the impression she thought they were "evil" or something.
are jws taught that cell phones, pagers, etc.
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acsot
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53
Please---Your Prayers And Good Wishes Are Needed
by Sunspot ini got a call from the er last night---hubby had been in an accident and they were running tests and x-rays.
he was in terrible pain.
they called back during the night during the night saying he has a shattered sternum and other injuries.
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acsot
I'm so sorry to hear about this! My thoughts are with you and hubby.
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acsot
That got me too Rebel8. If you retire, and no one accepts it, then what? Do they lock the Pope in his apartment forever? A bit strange indeed. -
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acsot
Hey there Rebel8! You are right on the mark!
I personally couldn't care less if popes have to serve until death or retire (), but I guess that if it is church tradition that they serve until death, Karol Wotyla (sp?) certainly would not have been the one to take it easy during his last years as head of the Roman Catholic church. Growing up when he did, where he did, I have at least some respect for his courage in facing down Communism, and feel that this same courage enabled him to continue as pope in spite of numerous ailments and physical pain. As for his other beliefs ....................
This is from the Catholic Herald: (highlights are mine) (the period from 1028 - 1048 seemed to be an especially precarious time for the popes of Rome!)
"The Holy Father may retire if he chooses. The Code of Canon Law states, "If it should happen that the Roman Pontiff resigns his office, it is required for validity that he makes the resignation freely and that it be duly manifested, but not that it be accepted by anyone" (Canon 332, No. 2). Nevertheless, when a pope is elected as the Successor of St. Peter, the Church expects that he will remain in office until his death.
However, in the history of the Church, a few popes have resigned for various reasons, and a few have been deposed for various reasons. The first pope to resign was Pope St. Pontian, who was elected as the Successor of St. Peter on July 21, 230. During the persecution of Christians under Emperor Maximinus Thrax, St. Pontian was exiled to Sardinia and condemned to work in the salt mines, which no one was meant to survive. Therefore, he resigned as pope on Sept. 28, 235, to enable the election of a new pope, St. Anteros, who could govern the Church. Pope St. Pontian was martyred in 236 (237), either from ill treatment in general or from a mortal beating.
On the other hand, Pope St. Silverius, who was consecrated pope on June 1, 536, was the first pope forcibly deposed. In March 537, the wicked Byzantine Empress Theodora had Pope St. Silverius captured and removed from Rome for not approving her nominations of heretics for bishops. He was exiled to the island of Palmaria where he remained a prisoner until his death on Nov. 11, 537. Since Pope St. Silverius had been declared "deposed," the clergy and people of Rome elected Pope Vigilius, who was consecrated on March 29, 537, (and was favored by the Empress).
A similar situation befell Pope St. Martin I, who was consecrated pope in July 649. Pope St. Martin opposed the Byzantine Emperor?s attempt to promote the monothelite heresy and to appoint heretical bishops. The emperor had Pope St. Martin kidnapped, taken to Constantinople, deposed, condemned and exiled. He died in the Crimea on Sept. 16, 656, of ill-treatment and neglect. Pope St. Martin I is the last pope to die a martyr.
Pope Benedict IX holds the honor notoriety for holding the papacy three separate times. He was the nephew of Pope Benedict VIII (1012 ? 1024) and Pope John XIX (1024 ? 1032), and a member of one of the powerful families. Upon the death of Pope John XIX in 1032, Benedict?s father, Alberic, bribed, manipulated and threatened the Roman clergy to have him elected. Benedict was very young, without experience and void of any ecclesiastical background. Most historians sadly cite Benedict IX?s papacy as the lowest point in the history of all of the popes. After various scandalous intrigues, the clergy and people of Rome forced him to flee, deposed him and elected a new pope, Sylvester III (formerly John, Bishop of Sabina).
Pope Sylvester III was consecrated on Jan. 20, 1045. However, Benedict and his forces managed to regroup, and they deposed Sylvester III on Feb. 10, 1045; therefore, Sylvester III?s pontificate lasted all of 22 days.
So guess who is pope again? Benedict IX. He was officially reinstated as pope on April 10, 1045. However, he resigned 21 days later on May 1, 1045. Apparently, Benedict IX was promised a large sum of money and a woman in marriage if he resigned his office in favor of John Gratian, Archpriest of the Church of St. John at Porta Latina. John Gratian was consecrated pope on May 5, 1045, as Pope Gregory VI.
However, the deal promised Benedict IX was broken, motivating Benedict IX to reclaim the papacy. King Henry III of Germany, who was very interested in reforming the Church, called the Council of Sutri in 1046 and summoned Benedict IX, Sylvester III and Gregory VI. The council convened on Dec. 20, 1046. Only the latter two appeared before the council, but all three were deposed. (Both Sylvester and Gregory would die in exile.) On Dec. 23, the clergy and people of Rome elected Pope Clement II, who was consecrated on Dec. 25.
Pope Clement II crowned Henry III as Holy Roman Emperor. He also decreed that anyone guilty of simony (the selling of Church offices) would be excommunicated. After Henry III returned to Germany, guess who appears again wanting to be pope? Benedict IX. On Oct. 9, 1047, Clement II died, poisoned, possibly by agents of Benedict IX. He installed himself as pope on Nov. 8, 1047, technically his third pontificate. Emperor Henry III again intervened, removing Benedict IX from power forever on July 17, 1048. That same day, Pope Damasus II was consecrated pope.
What happened to Pope Benedict IX, the three-time pope? He retired to the Abbey of Grottaferrata, where he repented of his sins, officially resigned as pope and spent the rest of his life doing penance. While this story is painful to hear, good sprung forth. The next popes introduced many reforms governing simony and clergy discipline. Also, in 1059, Pope Nicholas II regulated the process of electing the pope, making the cardinals the papal electors.
Another pope to resign was St. Celestine V, who was elected pope on July 5, 1294, and consecrated on Aug. 29. He was a Benedictine monk who enjoyed the life of a hermit and was renowned for his spirituality. To break a deadlocked College of Cardinals, he was elected as pope even though he was 84 years old. Immediately, he became prey to scheming cardinals and nobility alike. He resigned on Dec. 13, 1294, and returned to his monastery. His successor, Pope Boniface VIII, had him imprisoned so that there would be no attempt to place him on the throne again. (He must have remembered Benedict IX.) Pope St. Celestine died on May 19, 1295. Although canonized a saint, Dante placed him in Hell in The Divine Comedy for resigning.
Pope Gregory XII (1406 ? 1415) was elected as the legitimate pope at a time when there were two anti-popes: The Avignon Pope, Benedict XIII, who was supported by the French king; and the Pisa Pope, John XXIII, who was supported by conciliarists of the renegade Council of Pisa. (Please be sure to note that neither of these two latter mentioned pope were really pope.) Finally, at the Council of Constance (an official council), in order to heal the Church, Pope Gregory XII officially resigned, Benedict XIII resigned and John XXIII was deposed; Pope Martin V (1417 ? 1431) was then elected as the legitimate successor of St. Peter, following Gregory XII.
Therefore, we find some colorful history to the papacy, concerning resignations and depositions. However, there is much to learn from these stories: First, if a pope resigns from office, there will always be the temptation to challenge the authority of the new pope, pitting him against the old. Secondly, in modern times, the Church has been blessed with truly holy popes who have been strong leaders. Third, the Church has definitely made itself more independent, free of political machinations from secular leaders.
What about our present pope? Our Holy Father, Pope John Paul II, has consistently said that he will serve as long as the Lord desires. Let us pray for his health as well as his general intentions. He certainly is a great successor of St. Peter."
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Bible Reading Leading to More Doubt Than Faith... :(
by jeanniebeanz inok, it?s taken me longer to get my thoughts together on this than i expected, but here is the reason that i have come to have doubts in the divine nature of the bible; its failure to show that the god it describes is abiding by "his" own standards.. for example, according to 2 peter 1:20, the entire bible is inspired of god.
the main attributes of "god" are that "he" is love (1 john 4:8), "he" is just (deuteronomy 32:4), and "he" has all of the power (revelation 7:12).. with that in mind, my first problem with the bibles authenticity is that this ?loving god?
murdered the entire world of men at one point in history by drowning them.
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acsot
I know what you're going through! However, if it's any comfort, I found that the liberation to research and discover things on my own made up for any moments of panic at no longer having a imposed-from-without set of beliefs.
Do yourself a favour and read Thomas Paine's The Age of Reason. It is his critique on the Bible and religion in general. He wrote this in, I believe, 1794.
There are too many gems in his book to reproduce them all here, but I have inserted some notable quotes from his dissecting the Bible.
Interestingly, Paine never lost his believe in a supreme deity. I would certainly be curious to know his thoughts had he lived during and right after the time of Darwin et al and their discoveries.
From The Age of Reason:
?Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon than the word of God.
It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and, for my part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel.
We scarcely meet with anything, a few phrases excepted, but what deserves either our abhorrence or our contempt, till we come to the miscellaneous parts of the Bible. In the anonymous publications, the Psalms, and the Book of Job, more particularly in the latter, we find a great deal of elevated sentiment reverentially expressed of the power and benignity of the Almighty; but they stand on no higher rank than many other compositions on similar subjects, as well before that time as since.
The Proverbs which are said to be Solomon's, though most probably a collection (because they discover a knowledge of life which his situation excluded him from knowing), are an instructive table of ethics. They are inferior in keenness to the proverbs of the Spaniards, and not more wise and economical than those of the American Franklin.?
?? It is somewhat curious that the three persons whose names are the most universally recorded, were of very obscure parentage. Moses was a foundling; Jesus Christ was born in a stable; and Mahomet was a mule driver. The first and last of these men were founders of different systems of religion; but Jesus Christ founded no new system. He called men to the practice of moral virtues and the belief of one God. The great trait in his character is philanthropy.
The manner in which he was apprehended shows that he was not much known at that time; and it shows also, that the meetings he then held with his followers were in secret; and that he had given over or suspended preaching publicly. Judas could not otherwise betray him than by giving information where he was, and pointing him out to the officers that went to arrest him; and the reason for employing and paying Judas to do this could arise only from the cause already mentioned, that of his not being much known and living concealed.
The idea of his concealment not only agrees very ill with his reputed divinity, but associates with it something of pusillanimity; and his being betrayed, or in other words, his being apprehended, on the information of one of his followers, shows that he did not intend to be apprehended, and consequently that he did not intend to be crucified.?
??Did the book called the Bible excel in purity of ideas and expression all the books that are now extant in the world, I would not take it for my rule of faith, as being the word of God, because the possibility would nevertheless exist of my being imposed upon. But when I see throughout the greater part of this book scarcely anything but a history of the grossest vices and a collection of the most paltry and contemptible tales, I cannot dishonor my Creator by calling it by his name.?
re: Jesus? sacrifice:
??If I owe a person money, and cannot pay him, and he threatens to put me in prison, another person can take the debt upon himself, and pay it for me; but if I have committed a crime, every circumstance of the case is changed; moral Justice cannot take the innocent for the guilty, even if the innocent would offer itself. To suppose Justice to do this, is to destroy the principle of its existence, which is the thing itself; it is then no longer Justice, it is indiscriminate revenge.?
the link to the complete book is here:
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acsot
from USA today of October 28, 2003:
"... John Paul's ailing health has fueled speculation that he might step down, since he is no longer able to walk or complete many of his speeches. However, a high-ranking Vatican cardinal, Bernardin Gantin, stressed in an official speech to the symposium this week that popes serve for life."
the link: http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2003-10-18-vatican-pope_x.htm
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What if?
by jula71 indoes anyone have the fear of, "what if they?re right?
" i?ve had that nagging me then i have another voice, i?m not nuts-i?m not hearing voices-just a metaphor, tell me "they can?t be right.
" i just have this incredible inner conflict in me.
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acsot
They also produce a stiffling, legalistic culture where people are controlled by fear, guilt, and obligation.
It was because of the above that, during my cognitive dissonance period (which lasted several years) about the WTS and its teachings, my "what if" turned into an "even if", as in: Even if they're right (which, now, I do not believe for a second) I would not want to spend all of eternity in such a controlling, unloving and pharisaic organization.
I'd rather enjoy freedom from fear now for how ever many years I have than an eternity of guilt and pressure.
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A personal account
by cheeseman ini'm new to the forum.
glad i found this place, it seems i've finally found somewhere i feel comfortable.
i'm writing this to get some stuff out of my system.
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acsot
Welcome cheeseman! You are in the right place to learn about the inconsistencies and hypocrisy in the Watchtower society, which means that God cannot possibly approve of it as its sole organization of dispensing truth. That's just a control tactic used to instill fear and guilt in people so that they don't question the JW view of the world.
Please take care of yourself. There is plenty of information here that refutes JW teachings, but you don't need the stress of trying to prove it to anyone. Most people have found that it's like talking to a brick wall - nothing gets in. It is a classic mind control trick used by many organizations - JWs don't have the monopoly on it. If you'd like to read a great book, the The True Believer by Eric Hoffer. Though not about religion per se, you will be astounded at the similarities between the JW leadership throughout its history and Soviet Communism!
Hope to read more from you.
Ac
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Problem remembering my childhood
by mtbatoon ini have a big problem remembering my childhood.
it gets quite frustrating sometimes.
every so often i get a flashback to a memory but only by triggers, usually smell.
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acsot
One of my good friends here at work has the same problem. She was never a JW, so that's not the cause. I'm sure there are many reasons why this happens to people; high control religions aren't the only one. My friend was in therapy for a couple of years, mostly due to her upbringing by her mother - an indifferent, callous kind of woman, not physically abusive, more psychological and emotional.
I had mentioned something about one of my memories when I was around 4 years old and that's how we got on the topic. Anyway, she only has one or two memories of when she was very young (up to grade school), then almost none at all, even through high school.
She is thinking of hypnosis to try and jog her memory but isn't sure if she's ready, just in case it really does help her recall her past.
((mtbatoon)) You're not alone.
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Canadian Flags Fly Low - Canada mourns the death of four RCMP Officers
by jgnat inthe nation mourned thursday along with the 10,000 police officers and emergency workers from across the continent and ordinary canadians who came to honour the lives of const.
anthony gordon, const.
lionide (leo) johnston, const.
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acsot
So horribly sad. The poor parents and siblings, girlfriends and wives.