Terry,
As a recent correspondent of yours, looked forward to hearing from you and was starting to notice your absence.
Wish you had been on vacation.
No splitting hairs. My hopes and prayers are that you get well soon.
Kepler
kepler
JoinedPosts by kepler
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ABOUT TERRY
by Quentin interry was admitted to the hospital yesterday.
he has a severe case of cellulites which has affected his neck glands.
his face and neck are very swollen.
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Truly I say to you, Amen I say to you, Inferences from a Gospel manner of speech
by kepler inin another topic changes in the nwt, one of the correspondents posted that.
concerning the comma in luke 23:43, http://www.dtl.org/alt/comments/today.htmhas some interesting comments.. .
to summarize what was stated at this website, the translator selected a translation for luke 23:43. .
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kepler
Bobcat,
10:4 and thanks.
Haven't downloaded any concordances per se as of yet, but getting more acquainted with their use on line - including the Strong number.
As mentioned, Greek is inflected, but Strong number words are not necessarily. The "I say - lego" is an example. Yet earlier, while looking at the use of Babylon in Hebrew, I discovered that Babylon the city was number 0894 and Babylon(ia?) the province was 0895. So sometimes the system does allow the researcher to explore finer points.
Some details I did not check thoroughly, but might be worth examining further. Amin, amin in translation was treated as "Very truly or most truly" and a single amin as truly. Now I am not saying that words identified as strong number 3004 are entirely absent in Revelations, but I did not see any of that characteristic Gospel form, "Amen, amen I say to you,..." For four Gospels, this expression averages about 19 times per book. To me its absence in Revelations says a lot, bringing up every question ever posed about whether or not Revelations should have made it into the canonical final cut as a cross between an epistle and a gospel.
... Did Christ ever before address his apostles to write anything according to his instructions?
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Truly I say to you, Amen I say to you, Inferences from a Gospel manner of speech
by kepler inin another topic changes in the nwt, one of the correspondents posted that.
concerning the comma in luke 23:43, http://www.dtl.org/alt/comments/today.htmhas some interesting comments.. .
to summarize what was stated at this website, the translator selected a translation for luke 23:43. .
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kepler
The standard reply, down to the 24 hour layover in the nether world , illustrates a basic problem:
Who is setting the agenda of the story? Jesus or the organization. To the outsider like myself, everyone in the Bible appears to be held captive in a Brooklyn basement with a host of PR people distributing pamphlets continually updating their status. Unlike the grand inquisitor of Dostoevskij's Brothers Karamazov who does not allow Jesus to act further or make any further pronouncements, we have a set that alters his pronouncements past.
In any case, it is clear that except for the "translators" of the NWT, few have looked at the decision making process or evidence of Luke 23:43.
I hope someone examines Revelations for anything equivalent to "Truly I say to you..." Does Jesus, when he speaks to John the Apostle or John of Patmos - from wherever he was - lose his manner of speech? How then should we recognize him this time amid all the other dreams that Christians have had?
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Truly I say to you, Amen I say to you, Inferences from a Gospel manner of speech
by kepler inin another topic changes in the nwt, one of the correspondents posted that.
concerning the comma in luke 23:43, http://www.dtl.org/alt/comments/today.htmhas some interesting comments.. .
to summarize what was stated at this website, the translator selected a translation for luke 23:43. .
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kepler
In another topic Changes in the NWT, one of the correspondents posted that
Concerning the comma in Luke 23:43, http://www.dtl.org/alt/comments/today.htmhas some interesting comments.
To summarize what was stated at this website, the translator selected a translation for Luke 23:43
And Jesus said to him, "Positively I say to you, today you will be with Me in paradise."
The author states: The "him" in the verse is, of course, the repentant thief on the cross. Someone asked me why it is the ALT puts the comma before "today" rather than after.
However, even in the NWT, every place else the phrase occurs, the comma is placed directly after "you." So the burden of proof would be on them to prove why the phrase should be punctuated differently this one time and to explain why Jesus would have changed His lifetime practice while at the point of death.
So the reason the ALT and most every other version places the comma before "today" is consistency and simple logic. There really is no reason to place the comma after "today" - unless someone is trying to uphold their pre-conceived theology.
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For those who have not looked at it the ALT website, one thing mentioned is that in the 76 instances of translating the characteristic " I say to you,..." of Jesus Christ, only one time did the NWT translators elect to shift the comma from "you" to the next word. Our case in point.
To trace the use of the Greek word "lego" in the NT, in concordances it is listed under the larger unit that includes "saying, tell, said, answered, replied,...", but in a work like McReynolds' Word Study Greek English New Testament, one can pick out the instances where such phrases occur. Following the Greek and English text is a concordance appendix. The Strong number is 3004. Generally, we are looking for “amin lego imin…” or “amin amin lego imin”. I found 67 instances.
McReynolds NWT
Matthew
1 3:9 for I tell you, God is able for I say to you that God is able
2 5:18 truly I tell you, until for truly I say to you that sooner
3 5:20 for I tell you, unless your for I say to you that if your
4 5:22 but i say to you that if you however, I say to you that everyone
5 5:26 truly i tell you, I say to you for a fact, you
...
6 6:2 truly I tell you, they have truly I say to you, they are having
7 6:5 truly I tell you , they have “
8 8:10 truly I tell you, in no one in I tell you the truth, with no one in
9 10:15 truly I tell you, it will be truly I say to you, it will be more
10 10:23 truly I tell you, you will not truly I say to you, you will by
11 10:42 truly I tell you, none of these I will tell you truly, he will by no means
12 11:11 truly I tell you, among those truly I say to you, people, among those
13 13:17 truly I tell you, many prophets for I truly say to you, many prophets
14 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter I say to you, you are Peter and on this rock mass I will
build my congregation and the gates of Hades will not overpower it
15 17:20 For truly I tell you, if you for truly I say to you, if you have faith
16 18:3 Truly I tell you, unless you Truly I say to you, unless you turn around and become
17 18:18 Truly I tell you, whatever Truly I say to you men, whatever
18 18:19 Again truly I tell you, if you Again I truly say to you, if two of you
19 19:23 Truly I tell you, it will be Truly I say to you that it will be a difficult thing
20 19:28 Truly I tell you, at the renewal Truly I say to you, in the re-creation, when the son of man
21 21:21 Truly I tell you, if you have Truly I say to you, if only you have faith
22 21:31 Truly I tell you, the tax Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and the harlots are going
Ahead of you into the kingdom of God
23 21:43 I tell you, the kingdom of God I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you
24 23:36 Truly I tell you, all this will Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation
25 24:2 Truly I tell you, not one stone Truly I say to you, by no means will a stone
26 24:34 I tell you, this generation Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away
27 24:47 Truly I tell you, he will put Truly I say to you, he will appoint him over all
28 25:45 Truly I tell you, just as you Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not
29 26:13 Truly I tell you, wherever Truly I say to you, wherever this good news is preached
30 26:21 Truly I tell you, one of you Truly I say to you, one of you will betray me
Mark
31 3:28 truly I tell you, people will truly I say to you that all things will be forgiven
32 8:12 truly I tell you, no sign will Truly I say, no sign will be given
33 9:1 truly I tell you, there are Truly I say to you, there are some
34 10:29 I tell you, there is no one Truly I say to you men, no one has left
35 11:24 So I tell you, This is why I tell you, all the things
Luke
36 3:8 I tell you, God is able from For I say to you that God has power to
37 4:24 I tell you, no prophet is Truly I tell you, that no prophet
38 7:9 I tell you, not even in Israel I tell you, not even in Israel
39 7:47 Therefore I tell you, her sins By virtue of this, I tell you, her sins
40 9:27 But truly I tell you, there are But I tell you truthfully, there are
41 10:12 I tell you, on that day it will be I tell you that it will be
42 10:24 For I tell you that many For I say to you, many prophets
43 11:9 So I say to you, ask and it Accordingly, I say to you, keep on asking
44 12:27 Yet I tell you, even Solomon for I tell you, not even Solomon
45 14:24 For I tell you, none of those For I say to you, people, none of those
46 15:10 I tell you, there is joy in the I tell you, joy arises quickly
47 18:8 I tell you, he will quickly I tell you, he will not
48 18:14 I tell you, this man went down I tell you, this man went down to
49 18:17 Truly I tell you, truly I say to you, whoever does not
50 21:3 He said, “Truly I tell you, he said, I tell you truthfully, this lady
51 21:32 Truly I tell you, this Truly I say to you, this generation will by no
means pass away
52 23:43 He replied, “Truly I tell you, today you And he said to him, “Truly I tell you today, you
will be with me in paradise.” will be with me in paradise.”
John
53 1:51 I tell you, you will see heaven Most truly I say to you men, you will see heaven
54 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Very truly I tell you, no one In answer Jesus said to him, “Most truly I say to you, unless
55 5:19 Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you, the Jesus went on to say to them: “Most truly I say to you, the son
56 5:24 Very truly, I tell you, anyone Most truly I say to you, he that hears
57 5:25 Very truly, I tell you, the hour is coming Most truly I say to you, the hour is coming
and is now here, when the dead will hear
the voice of the son of God and those who Why not have said “ I say to you this hour, the dead will hear
hear will live. soon the voice of the son of God ….”?
58 6:32 Very truly, I tell you, Most truly I say to you,
59 8:34 truly, I tell you, everyone Most truly I say to you,
60 8:51 very truly, I tell you, whoever Most truly I say to you,
61 8:58 very truly, I tell you, before Abraham was, I am Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence
(Amin, amin, lego imin prin Abraam ego eimi) I have been.
62 10:1 very truly, I tell you, anyone Most truly I say to you, he that does not enter
63 10:7 I tell you, I am the gate for Most truly I say to you, I am the door of the sheep
64 12:24 very truly, I tell you, the one Most truly I say to you, unless a grain of wheat
65 16:20 very truly, I tell you, you Most truly I say to you, you will weep and wail
66 16:23 very truly, I tell you, if you Most truly I say to you, if you ask the Father
67 21:18 very truly, I tell you, when Most truly I say to you, when you were younger
Revelations - The expression is absent
Observations
1. Luke 23:43 is definitely translated inconsistently in the NWT when compared with these other examples.
2. Some of the most significant statements among the words of the Gospel are prefaced by the expression, “…truly I tell you/ truly I say to you. An example, “this generation” expression appears amid the list of “truly I tell you” invocations.
3. Where the McReynolds text consistently uses a comma, the NWT sometimes uses the subordinating conjunction “that” to the same effect.
(Depending on the grammar of the modern language, it is possible to have both a comma and conjunction – e.g., Russian, or just a conjunction - English).
4. Occasionally, beside the second person address ( to you), “people” or “men” are addressed in the NWT. We did not find this in the Greek of Matt 18:18, Luke 14:24 and John 1:51 in the McReynolds text.
5. The conversational and narrative convention apparent in the four Gospels, including John, is absent in the Revelations of John of Patmos in which Christ speaks to the narrator in a dream or vision.
6. From one chapter to the next in the NWT, the simple phrases under discussion have variations in translations. The McReynolds text does not. In the McReynolds concordance, “amin” is translated simply as “amen”, but the sidebar interpretation was consistently “Truly I tell you from one book of the NT to the other, with “Very truly” indicating the use of “amin” twice.
Continuing with the ALT translator's discussion:
In answer to an inquiry from a reader, the translator pointed out that he had checked over 70 Bible versions and they all used the same punctuation. He explained further.
The answer as to why the comma is directly after the first "you" is simple: The phrase "Positively, I say to you" or "Most positively, I say to you" (as it is translated in the ALT) occurs 76 times in the Gospels, always spoken by Jesus. In the other 75 occurrences, the comma is ALWAYS placed directly after the "you." Moreover, in none of these occurrences would it make any sense to include the next word before the comma.
So after punctuating the identical phrase in the identical manner 75 times, for consistency sake, it would only make sense to punctuate it the same way the 76th time.
Added to this simple grammatical explanation is the fact that it would make no sense whatsoever to include "today" in the introductory phrase. The word is completely redundant and unnecessary if punctuated that way. "Positively I say to you today, …" When else is Jesus speaking, tomorrow?
Furthermore, remember the situation: Jesus is hanging on the cross. He is struggling for every breath. Every word He speaks would be difficult. So, after a lifetime of saying "Positively, I say to you" (pause), it would make no sense for Him to now, as He is struggling for every breath, to change His lifetime pattern and add the completely unnecessary word "today" before the pause. But after the pause, it makes perfect sense. There, the word does have meaning.
Specifically, in the Greek text, the word "today" is the first word in the second phrase of Jesus words in the Greek text. In Greek usage, placing a word first in a clause is done to emphasize the word. Here, Jesus is emphasizing that immediately upon his death, the thief would be with Him in paradise.
And finally, the colloquial equivalent to "Positively, I say to you" would be something like, "Let me tell you the truth." And I don't ever see myself saying "Let me tell you the truth today (pause) ...." In other words, no one today would include the word "today" in an introductory phrase. Again, it is simply redundant and unnecessary. And I doubt very much anyone in Jesus' time did either.
Of course, there is ONE English version which does put the comma after the "today" in Luke 22:43 - the New World Translation, the "Bible" of Jehovah's Witnesses. But their reason for doing so is their preconceived theology, not grammar. JWs do not believe the righteous go directly to "paradise" after death. They believe people enter a state of non-existence at death, only to be "re-created" at the resurrection.
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Is there a list of changes made in the New World Translation?
by Grammy ini would love to be able to show them to my husband so he can check them for himself since he thinks the only changes made were that the nwt is in a "modern language" he gets quite upset with me when he tells me he has read the bible front to back several times and i say "yes you have, but the bible you are reading has been changed from what the scriptures in other versions of the bible say" thanks in advance for any help with this.grammy
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kepler
Bobcat,
Concerning the comma in Luke 23:43, this translator has some interesting comments.
I checked that out and managed to recover 67 of the "truly I say to you"s. I'm going to post the result in another topic.
One of the things I noticed about it is where these expressions turn up - and where they do not.
Kepler
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Interesting discussion with some Witnesses at my door today
by jwfacts ini moved to a new home about 6 months ago, so am no longer on a do not call list, but have not been contacted by jw's yet.
i didn't even know which territory i am in.
i asked again what congregation and he told me.
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kepler
jgnat,
Thanks. A very interesting chart and introductory text. When I have gone to sources in English such as an old encyclopedia in my living room, the wider publication of apocrypha among Protestants is obscured by the Anglo-Saxon Protestant perspective. The introduction to the Roman Catholic Bible will speak of Maccabees and other inclusions as Deutero-canonical. The reasons might vary - either to late authorship or unlikely historicity ( a story). Other books not making the cut might have more serious problems. Yet there are further divisions within the idea of a canon, when one considers that Jonah is part of the Hebrew OT prophets and Daniel is not...
But it sounds like you are saying that had I been speaking to elders in a coffee shop neaby the Danube, ignorance of Maccabees would be an even less acceptable answer.
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Interesting discussion with some Witnesses at my door today
by jwfacts ini moved to a new home about 6 months ago, so am no longer on a do not call list, but have not been contacted by jw's yet.
i didn't even know which territory i am in.
i asked again what congregation and he told me.
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kepler
JWFacts,
Thanks for the account. I had often been curious how either side of the debate should address the issue of living on paradise earth forever in light of the fact that most conditions in God's creation are not perpetual (save perhaps half lives for particles such as protons). And as you point out in particular - the sun.
To many who are close to me, I get the impression that they are looking forward to enjoying here on earth a perpetual corporate picnic with some of their relatives. While some might be "sisters" and "brothers" ( and others not JWs are consigned to other fates), it is obvious that they would not want to be stuck in an elevator with them for several minutes, much less a billion years. And I have never known of anyone's holiday with family that didn't need an eventual break.
But whether one believes in another plane of existence after life in this plane or not, there seem to be a lot of negating evidence to weigh against the inferences from a garden incident in chapters 2 and 3 of Genesis, Isaiah's verses about lions and lambs, and the notion that dead who are asleep will "awake" and walk about as before only with a greater degree of perfection. The geological record tosses in our faces records of carnivores on earth for ages past. The account of creation in chapter one is in discord with chapter 2. Our knowledge of stars is that they are born and die - and we can watch the process in the sky even now. The Hertzsprung Russell color and brightness diagram of star clusters is simply a snapshot of which ones are still alive and which ones have passed on in regions of the sky where they came to be at closely the same time. The Watchtower handouts neither account for food chains in the environment or the sources of solar energy. Are we to believe that the whole cosmos was transformed and handed over to Satan because of an account about a serpent and a tree?
While the sun might continue to produce helium from hydrogen for another several billion years, as the process is understood, even as it has done so it is getting hotter. When it started its main sequence combustion over four billion years ago, it was perhaps 20 or 30% less luminous. A billion years from now the Earth would certainly be much hotter - unless other provisions are made such as it becoming further removed. And what of the moon which is slowly drifting away? Will once it escapes come back and collide or will providence watch over that too? Will the seas and water cycle continue to function without fauna devouring fauna? In eternity will all these things be attended to by God, by 144,000 elect in heaven or by those to remain on Earth forever?
In the last week I had a similar encounter to the one you describe, but I confess it was of my own making. I was aware that groups of senior JWs from local KHs stop off at the same coffee house where I am now typing out this post on wi-fi. Since I had continued to be concerned about verses that had placed a divide in my house and family I went over and asked these individuals engaged in field service about several lines in Jeremiah - 25:8-11 to get us on track, and then 25:12 that follows. The first was cited as evidence that a 70-year desolation on Jerusalem had been invoked by God, and the next verse stated that an immediate permanent desolation would be put into effect on Babylon. I cited historical evidence that the second statement was untrue: that Babylon remained an important center for the Persians repeatedly cited in history and it was Alexander's intended capital, the place he eventually died in the 320s BC.
The most senior of the elders acted as spokesman. He said he was not familiar with the passages, but said that "we" take the Bible as our source for truth over all secular sources of information. And, of course, it was understood by all, that since I questioned the authority of a given verse, that I was questioning belief in God or his word.
My immediate reaction to this was, if statements from the Bible were offered as proofs, then why are they not allowed any test?
Before we resolved any of this, we went on to other issues. I asked that if there had been an early general apostacy in Christianity ( and they said that it occurred right after all the original apostles had died), then how could it be that the Bible would be compiled by deliberations among apostates several centuries later? They assumed that the books had always been obvious; and that it had never been a matter of choosing among books or scrolls claiming "Yes, I knew Jesus Christ..."
I asked, what about a books like the Maccabees vs. Daniel or Isaiah? The elder simply declared: I know nothing of the Maccabees and it is not part of the Bible. " If you no nothing of it, then how do you know it has no bearing? Are you not simply using a traditional Protestant canon. How is it that you can cite Daniel who provides dreamy 2nd century BC prophecies and errors in other matters, but straight accounts of the 2nd century events must be disregarded?
Shortly it was apparent that everyone on that side of the table had had enough. But it was only later that I realized that their belief in the literal inerrancy of the Bible, as is often the case, had placed them in a difficult corner from which to extract themselves. Verses from Ezra (e.g., 8:1) and Nehemiah strongly support Babylon's continued existence.
Ezr 8:1 These [are] now the chief 7218 of their fathers 1 , and [this is] the genealogy 3187 of them that went up 5927 with me from Babylon 894 , in the reign 4438 of Artaxerxes 783 the king 4428.
Neh 13:6 But in all this [time] was not I at Jerusalem 3389 : for in the two 8147 and thirtieth 7970 year 8141 of Artaxerxes 783 king 4428 of Babylon 894 came 935 I unto the king 4428 , and after 7093 certain days 3117 obtained I leave 7592 of the king 4428 :
Ezr 6:1 Then 116 Darius 1868 the king 4430 made 7761 a decree 2942 , and search 1240 was made in the house 1005 of the rolls 5609 , where 8536 the treasures 1 596 were laid up 5182 in Babylon 895 .
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If you believe Jer 25:8-11 is evidence for 70-year desolation, then read Jer 25:12
by kepler inabout a year and a half ago (03-03-11), discussing what i had learned in ancient history studies with someone who had been close to me, i received this note in the mail explaining why nothing was possible other than what was taught in ministry school, a 2520-year sequence of events that culminated invisibly in 1914.. "this question was on my theocratic ministry school review that will be covered tonight:".
how does 2 chronicles 36:21 underscore the fulfillment of the prophecy recorded at jeremiah 25: 8-11?
judahremaindesolate?
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kepler
Had a problem with entering the last post. I am doing a re-entry. Hope the layout works. Sorry for the double post.
Ok, so going back to the Jer 25:12 passage, here taken from the KJV
Jeremiah 25:12
12 And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the Lord , for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations.
Here are some verses that show up in later text:
Ezra provides the following (Strong numbers in superscripts)
Ezr 6:1 Then 116 Darius 1868 the king 4430 made 7761 a decree 2942 , and search 1240 was made in the house 1005 of the rolls 5609 , where 8536 the treasures 1596 were laid up 5182 in Babylon 895 .
Ezr 7:6 This Ezra 5830 went up 5927 from Babylon 894 ; and he [was] a ready 4106 scribe 5608 in the law 8451 of Moses 4872 , which the LORD 3068 God 430 of Israel 3478 had given 5414 : and the king 4428 granted 5414 him all his request 1246 , according to the hand 3027 of the LORD 3068 his God 430 upon him.
Ezr 7:9 For upon the first 259 [day] of the first 7223 month 2320 began 3246 he to go up 4609 from Babylon 894 , and on the first 259 [day] of the fifth 2549 month 2320 came 935 he to Jerusalem 3389 , according to the good 2896 hand 3027 of his God 430 upon him.
Ezr 7:16 And all 3606 the silver 3702 and gold 1722 that thou canst find 7912 in all 3606 the province 4083 of Babylon 895 , with 5974 the freewill offering 5069 of the people 5972 , and of the priests 3549 , offering willingly 5069 for the house 1005 of their God 426 which [is] in Jerusalem 3390 :
Ezr 8:1 These [are] now the chief 7218 of their fathers 1 , and [this is] the genealogy 3187 of them that went up 5927 with me from Babylon 894 , in the reign 4438 of Artaxerxes 783 the king 4428.
Nehemiah has some similar episodes.
Neh 13:6 But in all this [time] was not I at Jerusalem 3389 : for in the two 8147 and thirtieth 7970 year 8141 of Artaxerxes 783 king 4428 of Babylon 894 came 935 I unto the king 4428 , and after 7093 certain days 3117 obtained I leave 7592 of the king 4428 :
Both of these books indicate that civil society, prosperity and legal procedures continued to be cond ucted in Babylon under Persian authority with acknowledgment that the Persian king was king of Babylon. Having completed a couple of secular courses on the ancient mideast, it was generally understood that Babylon was one of three serving capitals for the Persian Empire. Fore Alexander the Great it was primary.
He died there.
In the KJV, it is not stated that the king of Babylon was Chaldean. I'll leave that for further study based on the Hebrew text. But if the Jeremiah's original statement was to that effect, we also observed earlier that a genuine Chaldean was not ruler of Babylon when the Persians attacked. It was an Assyrian.
There is one more book that has some bearing on this subject, which I would like to bring up again, illustrted by Daniel 9:1
"In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of Median descent, who was made king over the kingdom of the Chaldeans..."
Daniel goes on to tell how he is still waiting for the Judeans to return to their homeland after 70 years. It sounds very much like the narratives of Ezra and Nehemiah, but perhaps earlier, of a Persian monarch possibly providing safe passage for another potential party of Judeans headed back to Jerusalem. Earlier than Ezra, I would agree, but look at it more closely.
The only connection to Darius the Mede that I can find in a non-Biblical source is a contemporary of Ezra - Thucydides. In his history of the Peloponnesian wars, he describes the Persians attacking the Greek mainland in the conflict of several decades before as Medes over 50 times, he claims that their Greek allies had become "Mede-ized. The force they defeat at Marathon was under the command of Darius I, successor to Cyrus.
Darius wrote his epitaph on the walls of the Iran mountain pass at Behistun, claiming his Persian ancestry with an undertaking that rivals Mt. Rushmore, but with considerably more text to peruse. It was deciphered in the 19th century.
Only those of Greek heritage would be confused by whether Darius was a Mede or a Persian - which would be the case in the 2nd century Hellenistic outpost of Jerusalem under Antiochus V - Epiphanes. Odd also that Persians would have a succession of Dariuses as monarchs, adopting a name for their line that supposedly originated with the earlier Medean. Roughly Darius is the English transliteration of the Persian name, Dariush, its meaning is "he possesses" or "rich and kingly". I wonder what the name is supposed to mean in the Mede language? Anything?
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If you believe Jer 25:8-11 is evidence for 70-year desolation, then read Jer 25:12
by kepler inabout a year and a half ago (03-03-11), discussing what i had learned in ancient history studies with someone who had been close to me, i received this note in the mail explaining why nothing was possible other than what was taught in ministry school, a 2520-year sequence of events that culminated invisibly in 1914.. "this question was on my theocratic ministry school review that will be covered tonight:".
how does 2 chronicles 36:21 underscore the fulfillment of the prophecy recorded at jeremiah 25: 8-11?
judahremaindesolate?
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kepler
Ok, so going back to the Jer 25:12 passage, here taken from the KJV
Jeremiah 25:12
12 And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the Lord , for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations.
Here are some verses that show up in later text:
Ezra provides the following (Strong numbers in superscripts)
Ezr 6:1 Then 116 Darius 1868 the king 4430 made 7761 a decree 2942 , and search 1240 was made in the house 1005 of the rolls 5609 , where 8536 the treasures 1596 were laid up 5182 in Babylon 895 .
Ezr 7:6 This Ezra 5830 went up 5927 from Babylon 894 ; and he [was] a ready 4106 scribe 5608 in the law 8451 of Moses 4872 , which the LORD 3068 God 430 of Israel 3478 had given 5414 : and the king 4428 granted 5414 him all his request 1246 , according to the hand 3027 of the LORD 3068 his God 430 upon him.
Ezr 7:9 For upon the first 259 [day] of the first 7223 month 2320 began 3246 he to go up 4609 from Babylon 894 , and on the first 259 [day] of the fifth 2549 month 2320 came 935 he to Jerusalem 3389 , according to the good 2896 hand 3027 of his God 430 upon him.
Ezr 7:16 And all 3606 the silver 3702 and gold 1722 that thou canst find 7912 in all 3606 the province 4083 of Babylon 895 , with 5974 the freewill offering 5069 of the people 5972 , and of the priests 3549 , offering willingly 5069 for the house 1005 of their God 426 which [is] in Jerusalem 3390 :
Ezr 8:1 These [are] now the chief 7218 of their fathers 1 , and [this is] the genealogy 3187 of them that went up 5927 with me from Babylon 894 , in the reign 4438 of Artaxerxes 783 the king 4428.
Nehemiah has some similar episodes.
Neh 13:6 But in all this [time] was not I at Jerusalem 3389 : for in the two 8147 and thirtieth 7970 year 8141 of Artaxerxes 783 king 4428 of Babylon 894 came 935 I unto the king 4428 , and after 7093 certain days 3117 obtained I leave 7592 of the king 4428 :
Both of these books indicate that civil society, prosperity and legal procedures continued to be conducted in Babylon under Persian authority with acknowledgment that the Persian king was king of Babylon. Having completed a couple of secular courses on the ancient mideast, it was generally understood that Babylon was one of three serving capitals for the Persian Empire. Fore Alexander the Great it was primary.
He died there.
In the KJV, it is not stated that the king of Babylon was Chaldean. I'll leave that for further study based on the Hebrew text. But if the Jeremiah's original statement was to that effect, we also observed earlier that a genuine Chaldean was not ruler of Babylon when the Persians attacked. It was an Assyrian.
There is one more book that has some bearing on this subject, which I would like to bring up again, illustrted by Daniel 9:1
Daniel 9:1 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of Median descent, who was made king over the kingdom of the Chaldeans...
Daniel goes on to tell how he is still waiting for the Judeans to return to their homeland after 70 years. It sounds very much like the narratives of Ezra and Nehemiah, but perhaps earlier, of a Persian monarch possibly providing safe passage for another potential party of Judeans headed back to Jerusalem. Earlier than Ezra, I would agree, but look at it more closely.
The only connection to Darius the Mede that I can find in a non-Biblical source is a contemporary of Ezra - Thucydides. In his history of the Peloponnesian wars, he describes the Persians attacking the Greek mainland in the conflict of several decades before as Medes over 50 times, he claims that their Greek allies had become "Mede-ized. The force they defeat at Marathon was under the command of Darius I, successor to Cyrus.
Darius wrote his epitaph on the walls of the Iran mountain pass at Behistun claiming his Persian ancestry with an undertaking that rivals Mt. Rushmore, but with considerably more text to peruse. It was deciphered in the 19th century.
Only those of Greek heritage would be confused by whether Darius was a Mede or a Persian - which would be the case in the 2nd century Hellenistic outpost of Jerusalem under Antiochus V - Epiphanes. Odd also that Persians would have a succession of Dariuses as monarchs, adopting a name for their line that supposedly originated with the earlier Medean. Roughly Darius is the English transliteration of the Persian name, Dariush, its meaning is "he possesses" or "rich and kingly". I wonder what the name is supposed to mean in the Mede language? Anything?
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Post 607: Reject 607 BC if You TRULY Trust the Bible!!!
by Londo111 intherefore, if the 70 years period is for the destruction of jerusalem and exile at babylon:.
if zedekiah had not rebelled against babylon, had he surrendered during the final siege that lasted two and a half years, then the destruction of jerusalem and the deportation need not have happened.
then in the jubilee year, they were set free and their hereditary land was returned to them.
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kepler
Regarding control groups. I actually knew a couple of these people. The last time I ran into one of them, he was just chuckling and offered me a flyer to the district convention last month. This time since all were in a group, I addressed all my questions to the senior guy.
I have to say that my ex and I had actually been living together for six or seven years. Her decision to return developed as a result of the death of her son and the funeral. We met with the portion of her family that had been shunning her in a midwest town where her son last resided, a son whom I had never met. I made arrangements for the funeral. Her mother arranged for an elder to speak. After saying words I know longer remember about her son, the local elder turned to her and said that everything evil that had happened to her son was her fault. She had been raised in the truth and had that child at 14.
A couple of the people at the table had worked on dragging her back in. I suspect three at a time.
I haven't even seen her in nearly a year and it has been longer since I have been able to recognize anything about her that I knew.
...If they are worried about losing their families, then at least they have some idea how I feel. If they are given to informing on each other, then let it be on record that I could see that one of them was caving in. They will just have to figure out which one.
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From the TaNaKh: Ezra 8:1
These are the chiefs of the clans and the register of the genealogy of those who came up with me from Babylon in the reign of King Artexerxes.
The NWT: Ezra 8:1
Now these were the the heads of the their paternal houses and the genealogical enrollment of those going up with me during the reign of Artexerxes the king out of Babylon.
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Funny. I don't see any commas in this verse with that last prepositional phrase hanging there. I wonder what that is supposed to mean?
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