Posts by kepler

53

What exactly was going on after Jesus was put to death and no longer around?

by Terry in

the jesus believers were meeting in people's homes.

members of that community would take turns using private homes to gather.

thus, they went house to house.. these footstep tracers of jesus (they called themselves akolouthontes "followers" or some called themselves mathetai or "learners.

kepler

Terry,

Greetings!

It's been a while since I've made an entry to JWN, but I still read the topics and discussions. And I certainly pay close attention to what you have to say, whether I'm all in agreement or not. Thanks for all that examination and output.

The matter of Eusebius and Papias did pull me out of my corner observer table though. I had come across the two earlier, along with some commentary by Bart Ehrman. And in the above passages we have Eusebius first branded as a liar by a critic in our time ( after all, he passed on reports of miraculous survivals in the circus ring of centuries before) and then he is used as a source for Papias's recollections of the writers of the Gospels.

Eusebius was sceptical of Papias, but evidently he was willing to swallow the story of martyrs being swallowed whole by beasts. Now was the picture of Judas from Papias any more reliable than the reports of Christian martyrs also recorded by Eusebius? All I can say is that he recorded them both.

Are we to presume that anyone that Eusebius finds fault with is intrinsically reliable or that you have to be pretty bad to make the alarm bells go off for someone as naive as Eusebius?

Much of what I read in the Papias wikipedia entry was rather sceptical of Papias's stories. And as to whether Papias was talking about Jewish authors ( Mark and Matthew) writing in Hebrew or writing in Aramaic or writing in a regional dialect of Greek, there was no consensus.

Lately have been reading other classical writers - and I do see some resemblance to others, including Herodotus who began historical narrative writing with as many sidebars.

What must infuriate many critics of Eusebius is that he also had the temerity to say that many of the books in the canon were questioned by a number of contemporaries. He cites arguments against against Revelations, Jude, Peter and others - though he stands neutral on the matter himself.

He also refers to Papias as a bishop.

20

Jeremiah 29:8-21 and the August 2012 Oral review

by Bobcat in

something caught my attention in connection with the tms oral review.. i was hoping to ellicit some comments, especially from any who have some working knowledge of ane matters.. .

here is question 9 of the august 2012 tms oral review:.

when was egypt desolated for 40 years, and what basis do we have for believing that such a desolation took place?

kepler

Bobcat,

I know, the trail is pretty cold by now, but the subject seems to keep coming up. I had some discussion about this with a non JW friend recently while I was working my way through Herodotus ( in English). I had thought that the Neo-Babylonian invasion discussion had slipped right through my fingers or in one ear and out the other subvocalizing, but another book seemed to sort things out.

Canadian Egyptologist Donald Redford wrote a book titled "Egypt, Canaan and Israel in Ancient Times". I had picked it up in 2010 for $7.98 - and it has turned out to be a fascinating read. Toward the end of the book there is a chapter on "Egypt and the Fall of Judah". The first time I read it I was pre-occupied with Jerusalem, but Redford had a lot to say about Jeremiah - maybe a dozen pages examining his utterances. About Jer 46:11-12, "Swept away by the magnitude of the Babylonian victory [ at Carchemish in 604 - described in Wiseman's Chronicles of the Akkadian Kings] Jeremiah declared Nebuchadrezzar to be God's instrument and confidently predicted the destruction of all the states of the world [ 25:9, 17-26]."

Indeed, he writes of the fate of Ashkelon, a Greek city laid to ruin for a hundred years and its inhabitants deported to Babylon. This was recorded on one stelae by a Greek mercenary named Antimenidas.

Nonetheless, despite Jer 46:13-26, Redford notes (p. 457):

"It was over 60 years since an invading force had trodden the highway south from Gaza toward the eastern Delta, but in the interim, Saite concern over with the northeast frontier had produced a border far more securely fortified than the one Ashurbanipal had had to cross... unopposed..."

There was now to encounter "the fortified keep of Migdol, which now, since the coming to power of the 26th Dynasty, constituted the true border fort of the northern frontier and the entry to Egypt proper..."

P. 458 "When the Babylonians came within sight of Migdol (citing Herodotus, Book II - Egypt, paragraph 159), they found the Egyptian army drawn up and waiting.

"The Chronicle and Herodotus constitute our sole records of the battle. Both are laconic. The former reads, 'In the month of Kislev ( November-Decembe 601) [Nebuchadrezzar] took the lead of his army and marched to Egypt. The king of Egypt heard of it and mustered his arm. In open battle they smote the breast of each other and inflicted great havoc on each other. [Nebuchadrezzar] and his troops turned back and returned to Babylon. ' Herodotus records that Nechno ' attacked the Syrians (sic) by land and defeated them at Magdolus.'

"The battle amounted ot asignal defeat to Babylonian arms. Jeremiah and the doomsayers were confounded. but Necho seized the opportunity of the Babylonian retreat ( in defiance of Jeremiah's opinion of him [46:17]) to follow up his advantage and seize Gaza, now deprived of its fortifications through the recent siege.

"For the Babylonians Migdol had meant the loss of troops and equipment, and no further hostilities could be envisaged for the immediate future. In fact from January 600 to late November 599 Nebuchadrezzar remained at home in Babylon in order to 'gather together his chariots and horses in great number.' [Wiseman, Chronicles]..."

... There is much more.

82

My 66th birthday is today!!

by Terry in

jw
friends

once i was little boy in fort worth, texas living with my maw maw and paw paw and mommy.. then, i was an 18 year old 6'4'' skinny 165lb religious nut being dipped in a baptismal during a local assembly.. suddenly, i was 20 and listening to a jail cell door clang behind me as a conscientious objector.. wow!

23 years old and put on parole until my 6 years sentence was ended!

i got married to a nice jw girl and had 3 kids!.

kepler

Terry,

HAPPY BIRTHDAY!

...Gee, we ought to do this again next year.

93

Do People Believe We Are Condemned B/c of Adam and Eve?

by Band on the Run in

jw
friends

i find the notion that we inheirited sin through adam and eve to be a quaint, silly notion.

if you believe in the power of god, why would god create such a flawed creation?

few people believe the stories in genesis.

kepler

BOTR,

Some people, of course, pose questions about one's faith to counter questions that an adult might raise after considering for once a story they have heard read like a fable before bed to a child. The adult says, "Stop for a minute. What is really going on?"

Good question. And it only raises more. As Christians we forget to ask ourselves what would this story have meant to Jews if Paul had not come along? Would it have meant the same to all of them (the covenant that they attested to, being whatever it was ) since they could little agree on whether life ended with death or continued on another plane?

If one puts any stock in the notion of various sources of the OT books and chapters, the editors of chapter 1 through to 2:4 of Genesis were of different view and origin than those that followed for several chapters. Chapter language and description of creation differ significantly in chpater one from what follows. Even the disposition and behavior of the God who had completed a six day labor. But once the second, third and fourth chapter editors complete their account of the Garden, the subject is never broached again in Genesis. Nor does it elsewhere in the Penteteuch or the rest of the OT. Abraham's encounter with God introduces a Covenant and a Promised Land that unifies most of the rest of the text.

I am told that the Eastern Orthodox Church has a different view on the story of the Garden than we have in the west. And I am still curious to have their viewpoint explained. I notice as well, that although the NT Gospels appear to have devils and demons (rather than talking snakes) lurking behind EVERY tree, so to speak, Paul does not take a position of "ransom" being paid. And I think that significant. It is people such as Rutherford or his theological predecessors that seem to make so much of representing Satan at the affair which Paul describes as a breech between God and Adam. Maybe this sounds like splitting hairs, but I think there is more to it than that. I should add that the Paul's epistles came first with the explanation of Christ in terms of the Garden. And then the Gospels were written in a succession that is not clearly known, save that the SECOND destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple in a Roman siege was a significant milestone. Did all, some or one write afterwards?

Though is claimed to be the most Jewish in outlook of the Gospel writers, after a geneaology the story begins with the visit of Magi. Magi are Zoroastrians. They certainly believe in devils and a dualistic cosmos. Yet they are absent in the OT and at least one annotated Torah I have notes of 3:14, "... As the curse that follows indicates, this story has to do with the fate of the snakes, not with the cosmic role of a devil. There is no such concept in the Hebrew Bible.... v. 14 states explicitly that snakes crawl on their bellies is the punishment imposed on the snake and its descendants for the offense that it has committed." This is literal minded, of course. But are not alternative explanations for what this story about very literal and discriminating in evidentiary approach as well?

As circumstances would have it, I found myself only a few degrees of separation away from one of the priests that presided over the most famous exorcism in the country. Well, actually, he assisted. And only recently did he pass on after a career both as a high school instructor and as a paratrooper military chaplain. The subject of the rites was a young boy from the Midwest, not a young girl in the District of Columbia. While the presiding priest was more convinced that he was dealing with the devil since he was inflicted with a wound of about a hundred stitches in the midst of the encounter ( a hooked bedspring), the other attending priest said that "all he was sure of was that boy needed help" and that he confronted more evil on the battlefront.

I came away from both reading the Bible and these testimonies with the notion that evil is something more significantly within us and not so much about a dualistic battle over eternity between a demon and God. If I spend my life searching for this demon, I am more likely to spawn one within myself or fire weapons in the dark wounding others taking aim at it. To illustrate, try reading the raving daily entries of the 1934 Yearbook edited by Rutherford. And consider others whose means of exorcism was related more to alighting the strange at the stake. So if there is a question of spiritual triage, that reflects my thinking.

Of course, none of this resolves your dilemma, but I hope it provides some other perspectives.

K

34

1AM UK 21.12.2012... world not ended here

by BroMac in

jw
friends

err well unless i'm the only one left .

kepler

With some assist from other correspondents...

End of the World, As We Know It

Posted Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:34 pm ((PST))

Is the world gonna end at one second past midnight tonight, or

sometime between then and the stroke of midnight tomorrow night?

-L.

--------------------------------------------------------------

L:

My own experience with these matters is that the world is in the process (if not already ) of "invisible" end.

The adherents of this belief will be in contact with all of us shortly to inform us of such and set us down to have some not so little talks about the matter.

It will turn out that the old world had gone into receivership and the new party had obtained the rights in a foreclosure auction officiated by a Mayan higher power in the same "invisible" manner.

Expect frequent, pervasive and all encompassing memos from the new presumed authorities on all matters pursuant or otherwise until the next scheduled (or unscheduled) precipitous event - not that that will terminate the process.

Addenda:

With the world ended, it will be a good time for continued reflection on Mayan hieroglyphic prophecies which the authors' people have ceased to write or read themselves for over a millenium now.

...If you don't think the world has already been destroyed now that you have received this notice of what to expect, then you are simply not spiritually receptive enough to appreciate the facts. AWAKE!

K

PS. If you had a mortgage or car payment due at the end of the month, I'd put it in the mail according to previous calendar schedule and cover it with money in the bank according to the old system of things.

----------------------------

End of the World, As We Know It

Date: Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:31 pm ((PST))

QUERY:

WHO's Midnight?

There are 24 of 'em

Situation does NOT compute>

World termination is binary --

Either it is total or it is ain't --- leave the progressivity to the demoncrats

-GW

________________________________

End of the World, As We Know It

Date: Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:46 pm ((PST))

I had planned to get a pony keg and lawn chair and go up on the roof to get a

front row seat. But all that snow last night screws with that plan. I'm

switching to plan B. As soon as I get up I'm going down to the local bar, ask

the bar keep to keep a tab running and watch the whole thing in HD 1080p on

their big screen. See ya all around.

Big Bob

8

Storing up treasures in heaven - when do we get to see them?

by truthseeker in

jw
friends

i often heard the phrase "store up treasures in heaven" but never really knew what it meant.. if we're all going to be living on paradise earth, what good is it storing up treasures in heaven if we never get to see them?.

or am i missing something here?.

it would make better sense if we were going to heaven after we finish our life here..

kepler

In the New International Version

-------------

Matthew 6:19-21

"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.

But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.

For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."

--------------

As near as I can tell, it says much the same thing in the NWT.

But I can understand the concern. What with 144,000 administrators headed heavenward to manage such things, and a so-called remnant to remain down here on what is billed as a paradise earth, after an increasing number of administrative delays...

Someday though, after those first prophetic hurdles have been overcome, you'll go out to your mailbox and you will be in for a surprise...

22

A CRACKERJACK religion: the Watchtower Society

by Terry in

did you ever buy a box of crackerjacks?.

popcorn with caramel on it.. it had a gimmick, however, that really pushed sales and kept it popular decade after decade.. crackerjacks had a prize hidden inside!.

what fun to eat caramel popcorn just to get that stupid prize!.

kepler

Speaking of the FDS...

Took a multiple choice employment test today and the vocabulary part just happened to have the word "DISCRETE" as a test question.

There were four alternatives and "WISE" was not among them. The answer was "CAUTIOUS".

It's the least to say that I had a feeling already:

DISCRETE and FOOLISH VIRGINS or WISE and FOOLISH BRIDESMAIDS? WISE and FAITHFUL SERVANT or FAITHFUL and DISCRETE SLAVE?

A DISCRETE SLAVE might be CAUTIOUS about suggesting another crackerjack prize date for the end in the box.

A WISE SERVANT wouldn't have suggested it in the first place. That would be attempting to paint the master into a corner.

Not WISE, FAITHFUL or even DISCRETE but MANIPULATIVE.

Of course, I have always been fascinated by Orwellian equivalences, perhaps being arranged into syllogisms...

WAR is PEACE

IGNORANCE is STRENGTH

FREEDOM is SLAVERY (!!!!) ...

PUBLISHING is FAITH...

FAITHFUL DISCRETE SLAVE is GOVERNING BOARD

TOTAL THEOCRACY is PARADISE EARTH

Long live this, that or the overlapping generation!

...Got anything else in this box?

23

The SIN that is UNforgiven a contrast between Christianity and Judaism

by Terry in

it is little understood by christians what a difference there is between themselves and judaism especially on the matter of whom god forgives and why.. .

a christian expects to sin against many people in the course of their life, but proudly boasts that they aren't "perfect just forgiven.

" this is wrong by judaism's ethical, moral and theologic standards.. .

kepler

Terry, PSacramento,

As interesting and detailed as this is, wonder if the discussion is about two moving targets? Is not "much of Mishrah" developed after the second destruction of the Temple? Could there have been cities of refuge throughout the period of Hebrew Scripture if centuries of the periods under discussion were under foreign rule? Subsequent to that there was a Diaspora that eventually had no center. I suspect that reconciliation with those with which one has quarreled or sinned has been a continued underlying principle, but could it have always been the same in scope for the last three millenia?

31

WT: World War I started in October 1914 (not July 1914)

by Calebs Airplane in

according to the wt, these are the actual sequence of events that led to the start of world war i:.

1) the gentile times ended on october 1/2, 1914.

2) jesus took the throne immediately thereafter.. 3) one of jesus' first tasks as the newly enthroned king was to engage in a heavenly war against satan and his demons.. 4) having won the war against satan and his demons, jesus expelled satan and his demons from the heavenly realm giving them only terrestial access.. 5) since satan is a sore loser, he became extremely bitter and decided to wreak havoc upon all the earth.. 6) filled with anger, satan then provoked the nations of the earth into a 4 year bloody battle known today as world war i. so there you have it... wwi started sometime in october of 1914 (not july 1914 as history books would have you believe).

kepler

Bobcat,

Speculative for now:

I think the April-May 1917 declarations were direct results of the American. Throughout this period there was a succession of intervention in Gulf and Carribean countries by Roosevelt, Taft and Wilson administrations. Some instances were not directly related to WWI; in some cases, simply to restore civil order - on US terms. But a consequence of a Central American declaration of war probably did not mean much in terms of troop movements or casualties. Probably it meant an embargo on shipping or trade, a prohibition of ships stopping in port for stores and fuel or additional protection to the Panama Canal.

Of course, the declarations in this part of the world seem one-sided. Barbara Tuchman, in another book, gives the background of the Zimmerman note, an offer from Germany to Mexico in 1915 for assistance in regaining the SW - for a declaration of war against the US. I guess the devil made them do it. But Mexico had enough internal problems (civil war), might not have had a chance to read it ( in private) and as the record would indicate, must have declined.

Question for readers: If this was an end of the world conflict, how come more temples were not destroyed?

100

What would Jesus think of Crosses everywhere?

by Simon in

.

http://imgur.com/gallery/k9hiq.

kepler

Matthew 16:24

Mark 8:34