Posts by Bobcat

13

Blatantly Stupid Contradiction

by The Searcher in

w85 12/1 p. 9 par.

4 declared righteous "for life" .

"since they had been "sold under sin" by their forefather adam, his descendants could do nothing to relieve themselves of this crushing debt.

Bobcat

Splash:

Nice catch! I'm saying that with reference to my own intention of understanding the discussion in Romans 6.

Incidentally, in the most recent NWT the brackets were taken out. In the previous edition and in the WT Library CD "his" is in brackets. (Often times a verb has no subject and a translation will insert a pronoun according to the inflection of the verb. Off hand, I'm not sure if that was the intention here [in the NWT] or if the intention was doctinal. I would venture to say, based on how the Society views the verse, that it is doctrinal. But I'm just conjecturing.)

But either way, "his" changes the meaning of the argument in Romans 6. If you look at the context beginning in verse one, Paul is talking about "sin" in a general sense, as a principle ('sinfulness', as it were), not an individual's particular sins that he may have committed. And that fits well with the idea that "he that has died" is referring to a believer that has been baptized.

Thanks again for the good eye.

Take Care

Edited to add:

Just looking at the context and verse 7 again, I feel quite confident that "sin" in verse 7 is abstract, not, as you said, a particular history of sin. The article before "sin" is genetive, singular, feminine.

35

Who or is the parclete in John 14:16,26 15:26 16 7-14

by insearchoftruth4 in

Bobcat

Leolaia:

A little traveling thru some threads led me here. I wanted to say thank you for responding in connection with Muhammed. (a little belated though).

InSearchOfTruth:

Thanks for the additional reference to Acts 7:37 (concerning "The Prophet").

You said, "the first few words are missing. A prophet from your own midst. Why aren't they quoted?"

I'll see if I can come up with anything relevant to what you asked.

5

Comforter in the Bible

by Yahya-Ansar- in

i would like to know what your thoughts are on who or what is the comforter mentioned by jesus in the bible.

i have heard different opinions on this matter from a christian perspective and am hoping you could share your beliefs with me god-willing.

.

Bobcat

I posted some research on this in this thread. I hope it helps some.

Take Care

16

Why is the Harlot not in the lake of Fire?

by rhodesboy in

will you receive your soul as a spoil?.

18 we need to remember that what jehovah has promised as a spoil is our soul.

even if a few of hisservants perish in the persecution that may come during the great tribulation when the political horns of the wild beast turn against religion, those faithful ones will not really have lost out.

Bobcat

If you follow the order of events presented in Revelation chapter 16 (verses 16-21), the nations are gathered to "Armageddon" prior to the "great earthquake."

Thus, all the events listed from verses 17 through 21 (which includes 'Babylon's being handed the cup of God's wrath - v.19c) happen at "the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon." Saying that "Armageddon" occurs after Babylon's demise is technically incorrect. "Armageddon" doesn't "occur." "Armageddon" is a "place," a location (Greek topos - from which we get 'topography'). Events, such as Babylon's destruction and the "War" mentioned in 16:14 all occur 'at the place called Armageddon.'

Just as another point of note: Your argument depends on the 1995 WT understanding that Jesus ordering of the "goats" into the "everlasting fire" occurs midway through the great tribulation, that is, after "false religion" is destroyed. Note that in Matthew 24:14, after the preaching, "then the end will come." Verses 15-20 describe immediately prior to "the end." Then verses 21 and 22 describe great tribulation with 'no flesh being saved' except for God's intervening for his "chosen ones."

Having said all that, I can see where you are coming from in your reasoning. And if you were to accept the Society's speculative explanations, then I could see your conclusion also. What you are concluding would be a logical conclusion if you accept the Society's explanations as a premise. Oddly, though, I don't think the Society would agree to your conclusions. I believe the Society maintains that 'the door is shut' when the great tribulation begins, even though their explanation of the 'sheep and goats' parable would argue otherwise.

Take Care - And I did enjoy following your explanation. It has some 'outside-of-the-box-thinking' qualities to it.

13

Blatantly Stupid Contradiction

by The Searcher in

w85 12/1 p. 9 par.

4 declared righteous "for life" .

"since they had been "sold under sin" by their forefather adam, his descendants could do nothing to relieve themselves of this crushing debt.

Bobcat

The point being missed is that the discussion leading up to this statement in Romans 6:7 is about baptism, not about literal dying. The only "dying" that is being referred to is Jesus' death and the baptized believer's symbolic death by means of baptism.

When a person gets baptized as a disciple of Christ he, in effect, shares in Jesus' death and resurrection. The act of going down into the water is comparable to dying. And coming up out of the water equates with resurrection to a new life. This is the necessary being 'born of water' that Jesus mentioned in John chapter 3.

Jesus' death has power to cover over sin, and the act of faith that is involved in the believer's getting baptized allows him/her to share in the benefits brought about by Jesus' death and resurrection.

When Paul says that 'he that has died has been acquitted of sin,' he is referring to the living disciple that has been baptized. The term "acquitted" (or "justified" or "declared righteous") would not normally be appropriate when referring to a dead person. But since a baptized disciple is someone who has symbolically "died," its use by Paul is appropriate here.

That is not to say that a dead person won't benefit by Jesus ransom. The ransom makes possible a future bringing back to life of dead people. Otherwise, such a person would stay dead as the wages of sin. But such a resurrected person will afterwards have to exercise faith in Christ in order to be "declared righteous" and continue living. But Romans chapter 6 is not discussing the resurrection of dead people.

Thus, in connection with non-disciples that have died, it is not their death that "acquits" them, it is the ransom that will temporarily 'release' or 'free' them from what would otherwise be an unending sentence of death. However, if one accepts the ransom provision as a given, then one could say that 'death acquits,' since it would lead to benefitting from the ransom as far as a resurrection is concerned.

From the Society's standpoint, the problem they have is that they say the discussion in Romans 6 about baptism only applies to the 144,000. This is why they never use this chapter when discussing baptism. The WT maintains that only the 144,000 are "declared righteous." Everyone else is only 'declared righteous as friends of God' (Which is one big mumbo-jumbo, distorted lie - but I guess they have to come up with something for everyone else.)

Incidentally, in connection with the verb dikaioo (Strong's #1344) which appears in Romans 6:7, The Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the Greek NT says about its use in Romans 6:7, "To justify, to declare to be in the right. Here the word means either to be declared to be free from sin or to be acquitted from sin."

I might add, it was Romans chapter 6 that led me to understand what the "scrolls" of Revelation 20:12 were.

111

WT Elders school: The WTS has progressed from just plain stupid to dangerously stupid

by sir82 in

jw
friends

fresh off the recent 1-day elders school.

to keep things readable i'll post "highlights" over the next several days in different topics.

point 1: they have progressed from "just plain" stupid to dangerously stupid.. .

Bobcat

TD:

The scenario with the depressed lady strikes me as a situation where another woman could help so much more than a man could. Except perhaps informally, I doubt very much if that would ever happen in WT land though.

Some months back there was a WT study dealing with getting help from others in the congregation. The article was really referring to the elders, not anyone else. (I wish I could remember what issue this was, but it was probably sometime earlier this year.)

At any rate, I raised my hand and made reference to Titus 2:3-5, that the "aged women" in the congregation were a source of experienced help, especially for sisters. The conductor corrected me. 'We were talking about getting help from elders.'

That pretty much sums up how they feel about that. To get help from a sister would represent a loss of power for the Society.

For reference: (Titus 2:3-5) . . .Likewise let the aged women be reverent in behavior, not slanderous, neither enslaved to a lot of wine, teachers of what is good; 4 that they may recall the young women to their senses to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 to be sound in mind, chaste, workers at home, good, subjecting themselves to their own husbands, so that the word of God may not be spoken of abusively.

10

Is The "Evil Slave Class" Still Viewed As JWs Have Taught Over The Years?

by minimus in

jw
friends

with the new understanding of the "fds" , is the previous material regarding the "evil slave class" still current?.

Bobcat

In the parable, the "evil slave" is the "faithful slave" - IF the 3rd class conditional, "if ever," proves true, which, from Jesus standpoint, may or may not.

In Luke 12:45 the phrase is, "But if ever that (Greek ekeinos, #1565) slave should say in his heart . . . "

Where there is no antithesis, such as here, where the focus is only on the "faithful and discreet slave," "that" takes on the meaning of, "Referring to the person or thing immediately preceeding or just mentioned." (AMG Word Study Dictionary) In this instance, it is the previously mentioned "faithful and discreet slave."

Matthew 24:48 employs what is thought to be an Aramaism saying, "But if ever that evil slave should say in his heart . . . "

Here, the text describes "that slave" (from Luke) as "that (ekeinos) evil slave." "Evil" anticipates what Jesus is about to say about "that slave," - "if ever" he does what Jesus next says concerning mistreatment of his fellow slaves and hanging out with drunkards.

I wanted to explain that first because this new WT explanation of the parable creates several new problems beyond the problems that their previous explanation had.

Leolaia has mentioned previously that the new explanation brings up the problem of, 'In what way did the "Master" leave in 1919?', which is implied in the parable by his putting "the faithful slave" in charge of feeding operations until the Master's return.

The context of the parable only brings up this "evil slave" in connection with AFTER the faithful slave is put in charge of 'feeding.' So if the Society is still going to maintain that the "evil slave" is a seperate class of persons, then, as far as the parable is concerned, they only come into focus AFTER this, that is, according to the Society's explanation, AFTER 1919. So they couldn't reasonably be people who break away in Russell's time. (Does "that evil slave" refer to a whole class of persons? Or just a handful at Brooklyn? And if so, who (post 1919)? Since we can name the few in charge at Brooklyn since 1919, we should be able to name the few who become the "evil slave.")

Of course, no one here is charging the Society with being reasonable. But this should be interesting to see.

Just as a point of personal opinion, I see the change in who "this generation" is (2008) and the release of the "Faith In Action" DVDs (2009ff, which give a lot of focus to these few in charge), as well as sly comments over the last couple of years concerning "the faithful slave" class in the WT pubs, and increased 'press time' given to the GB in recent videos and pubs, as all circumstantially related. To me, this has been in the planning on a much broader scale than just what was mentioned at this year's Annual Meeting.

And, of course, it all comes on the heels of the unexpected increase in Memorial partakers.

Take Care

Edited to add:

Also, the "evil slave" is around to be punished when the "Master" returns. So he couldn't possibly be just ones in the post 1919 time frame. He has to exist from whenever he shows up, post 1919, all the way to the end when the Master returns at Armageddon.

Further edited:

Also, if the GB is "the faifthful slave" ONLY when it acts as a group, must "that evil slave" only be such when it acts as a group? If so, which group is that? In what way did they act together? Yes, this is going to be real interesting!

83

ManMade UFO Caught On Google Earth?

by metatron in

jw
friends

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/11/08/228582/.

there have been rumors about this craft for years, as well as strange sightings.. in addition, over the past week, a tv show that was shelved for 2 years was quietly put on air at 3am.

it claimed to interview a government employee who had detailed pictures of mars - far better than what nasa shows the public- together with testimony that the us has been to mars, using craft put together from technology gained from ufo crashes.

Bobcat

Satanus:

Very interesting find on the ability of water immersion to improve g-force resistance. It would be neat to fully understand the dynamics of how that works. Thanks for the research leg-work on that.

Not being familiar with the research, I would speculate that high g-force resistance would be the perogative of air/space travel where weight discipline is a significant factor. That might be one of the reasons why the research may not have progressed beyond the basics (if in fact it stopped there). Water weighs 8 lbs/gallon. And a container big enough to hold a human and enough water to immerse him, and strong enough to maintain its structural integrity at the high g-loading envisioned would be significant factors. (How would one effect an emergency ejection/escape? might be one of the questions raised. Or how would cockpit design allow him to interact with the aircraft? - Perhaps mind control as in the movie "Firefox.")

Any craft (human-made) nimble enough to do high-agility turns is likely to be much smaller than, say, a cargo plane. On fighter aircraft, for example, fuel loading (jet fuel= 6.5 lbs/gal), and mission loading (such as weapons carriage) is a significant part of the available useful load.

A water encased crewman would require significant structural enhancement to the cockpit area. And, in fact, the entire craft would need to be structurally enhancd to handle the increased g-loading that the pilot could now endure.

I hope you don't mind this. I'm just trying to hypothasize what all the considerations might entail for building an aircraft that would include a pilot who could now endure, say, 20 or 30 Gs verses the 9 or 10 that is possible now with the g-suits that are presently available. It could be that the current setup is a trade-off between what is possible and what is practical (with the next step being to eliminate the physical weak-link in the arrangement, namely, the human).

I've enjoyed the discussion and everyone's contribution.

83

ManMade UFO Caught On Google Earth?

by metatron in

jw
friends

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/11/08/228582/.

there have been rumors about this craft for years, as well as strange sightings.. in addition, over the past week, a tv show that was shelved for 2 years was quietly put on air at 3am.

it claimed to interview a government employee who had detailed pictures of mars - far better than what nasa shows the public- together with testimony that the us has been to mars, using craft put together from technology gained from ufo crashes.

Bobcat

By the way, I said something a little backwards:

"As it turns out, photons are mass-less and, thusly, unaffected by the theoretical 'higgs field' or 'higgs ocean.'"

I think it would have been more accurate to say:

"Photons are mass-less because they are unaffected by the "higgs field. This is what allows light to change direction abruptly" (In physics, a turn would be considered an "acceleration," which is a little different from how the term would be used normally.)

I guess the end result is the same. Other sub-atomic particles, such as protons and neutrons, are thought to be affected by this (admittedly) theoretical field - and affected to different degrees. This is what is thought to give things their different masses.

Also, mass increases with speed (I think this is one of the byproducts of E=MC 2 ). Thus, the faster the speed, the greater the mass and the greater the turning difficulty for anything having mass.

Light, w/o mass, doesn't share this turning problem.

I could see where a thicker fluid might make for a smaller turning radius. The fluid (air or water) is not hindering the turn, but helping it. Thus, a plane at lower altitude has better agility than one at higher altitude (and thinner air). So, conceivably, water could be used to perform even tighter turns.

On the down side of a thicker fluid, drag would increase proportionately in the turn, making it more difficult to maintain speed in the turn. I think even light is affected somewhat by this. I understand that light refracted thru a prism can lose a measurable amount of speed. I don't know if that is true with a mirror or not (by the way, good illustration EE). (By the way, the Russian torpedo I mentioned earlier that travels in a 'bubble of air' is supposedly designed for straight, surprise shots. Turning would conceivably strip it of its drag reducing bubble.)

83

ManMade UFO Caught On Google Earth?

by metatron in

jw
friends

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/11/08/228582/.

there have been rumors about this craft for years, as well as strange sightings.. in addition, over the past week, a tv show that was shelved for 2 years was quietly put on air at 3am.

it claimed to interview a government employee who had detailed pictures of mars - far better than what nasa shows the public- together with testimony that the us has been to mars, using craft put together from technology gained from ufo crashes.

Bobcat

By the way, just adding to the 90 degree turn idea:

Light, when it is refracted, makes abrupt turns, even 90 degree turns. These are turns that are immediate as compared to, say, an aircraft turning which would follow an arc.

As it turns out, photons are mass-less and, thusly, unaffected by the theoretical 'higgs field' or 'higgs ocean.'

This discussion got me interested in reviewing a little of what I learned about the subject.