Posts by Bobcat

9 Paul's words at 1 Corinthians 7:10-16 encourage marriage mates to stay together. Yet, some, after trying very hard to preserve their marriage relationship, have finally decided that, in all conscience, they have no choice but to separate. What may be the grounds for such a step?

10 Willful nonsupport is one basis for separation. When entering wedlock, a husband assumes the responsibility of providing for his wife and any children they may have. The man who does not provide for members of his household "has disowned the faith and is worse than a person without faith." (1 Timothy 5:8) So separation is possible if there is willful nonsupport. Of course, appointed elders should give careful consideration to an accusation that a Christian is refusing to support his wife and family. Stubborn refusal to support one's family may result in disfellowshipping.

11 Extreme physical abuse is another basis for separation. Suppose an unbelieving mate often gets drunk, becomes enraged, and causes the believer physical harm. (Proverbs 23:29-35) Through prayer and by displaying the fruitage of Jehovah's spirit, the believer may be able to prevent such outbursts and make the situation endurable. But if the point is reached where the health and life of the abused mate actually are in jeopardy, separation would be allowable Scripturally. Again, congregation elders should look into charges of physical abuse when two Christians are involved in the troubled marriage, and disfellowshipping action may have to be taken.-Compare Galatians 5:19-21; Titus 1:7.

12 Absolute endangerment of spirituality also provides a basis for separation. The believer in a religiously divided home should do everything possible to take advantage of God's spiritual provisions. But separation is allowable if an unbelieving mate's opposition (perhaps including physical restraint) makes it genuinely impossible to pursue true worship and actually imperils the believer's spirituality. Yet, what if a very unhealthy spiritual state exists where both mates are believers? The elders should render assistance, but especially should the baptized husband work diligently to remedy the situation. Of course, if a baptized marriage partner acts like an apostate and tries to prevent his mate from serving Jehovah, the elders should handle matters according to the Scriptures. If disfellowshipping takes place in a case involving absolute endangerment of spirituality, willful nonsupport, or extreme physical abuse, the faithful Christian who seeks a legal separation would not be going against Paul's counsel about taking a believer to court.-1 Corinthians 6:1-8.

13 If circumstances are extreme, then, separation may be warranted. But flimsy pretexts obviously should not be used to obtain a separation. Any Christians who do separate must bear personal responsibility for that action and should realize that all of us will render an account to Jehovah.-Hebrews 4:13.

Now some years later in the Keep Yourselves In God's Love Book (2008):

*** lv p. 220 The Bible's View on Divorce and Separation ***

In certain extreme situations, some Christians have decided to separate from or divorce a marriage mate even though that one has not committed fornication. In such a case, the Bible stipulates that the departing one "remain unmarried or else make up again." (1 Corinthians 7:11) Such a Christian is not free to pursue a third party with a view to remarriage. (Matthew 5:32) Consider here a few exceptional situations that some have viewed as a basis for separation. . .

(After which, they give the exact same reasons as in the 1988 WT. Underlining and bolding was mine.)

First, in the 1988 WT, they list the acceptable reasons for separating. Then, 20 years later, they refer to these exact same reasons as "a few exceptional situations that some have viewed as a basis for separation."

20

What is with Jeremiah 5:8 in the NWT

by HowTheBibleWasInvented in

as already posted im agnostic... but i find the texts of the bible the world's most famous book.. .

check jeremiah 5:8 out in the nwt.

while thismight now be shocking in the judean prophets what is shocking is this is a mojor addtion to the text to make it sound vile.

Bobcat

Linked here for future reference. (And for the next 6 year old that gets assigned this reading in the TMS.)

Here is the NWT rendering:

(Jeremiah 5:8) . . .Horses seized with sexual heat, having [strong] testicles, they have become. They neigh each one to the wife of his companion.

And a few others.

51

Jeremiah Source Material

by Bobcat in

i started this thread as a single place for anyone who would like to add references to source material, or anything else for that matter, pertaining to the jeremiah book study.. .

page 52:.

here is a thread and numerous comments concerning jeremiah 13:1-11 and whether or not jeremiah traveled to the euphrates to hide a garment.. .

Bobcat

Jeremiah 5:8, the NWT rendering. See here.

44

Interesting experience while protesting at district conventions

by theron ware in

for three weekends this summer, a friend and i protested outside district assemblies being held in the tucson convention center.

our approach was very low key and completely non-confrontational: we just held our posters and smiled.

this was our experience at the first two assemblies (for the third assembly, see the next paragraph).

Bobcat

How did the UBM react when they tried to move him?

24

Chemical warfare in Syria-can man be saved?

by Monsieur in

the images on the news after the town in damascus was attached with a chemical weapon was incredibly disturbing.

babies dying, people suffocating, it was man at his worst.. can man be saved?

it seems the entire world is implicated in this conflict.

Bobcat

myelaine:

"...I think the chemical weapons were used to deliberately force the Americans hand in this conflict. So far president Obama has found ways around not interfering. As a tactical manoeuvre it is as well conceived as it is evil...will president Obama reveal his impotence to the entire world or start WW III? "

I agree with Glander on your thought (Assuming the NBC attack is real), that this is spot on.

Putin has been spoiling for a fight with the Americans. He's just never been able to get it in a playing field that he's been comfortable with. But now he has a formidable fleet in Syrian waters and sufficient air defense coverage of Syrian air space.

I find it interesting that there hasn't been as much Western rhetoric over this chemical attack. IMO, Putin has 'dared' the west, especially the US, to respond. The result will be a loss of face for the US either way. If the US doesn't react, it will start to dawn on the world that the US can be stood up to. If the US does react, I'm afraid their Med Fleet (7th ?) will be bloodied.

That is not to minimize the suffering from this. But this is a global chess match for 21st century world order, and people are just the pawns.

32

Is (a possible) revised NWT prompted by lapsing copyright?

by slimboyfat in

in the united states i gather that copyright lasts for the lifetime of the author plus 70 years.

if copyright only lasts for 70 years from publication of anonymous works, then copyright for the nwt of the christian greek scriptures would be due to run out in a few years.

watchtower leaders probably don't like the idea of others being able to publish hard copies or circulate the nwt in ebook format.

Bobcat

Question:

Are the 'anonymous' translators the copyright owners or is the WTBTS the copyright owner? And if the WTBTS, then, does the lifetime extension mentioned above apply to a corporation, just as for a real human?

(I think I remember somewhere that the translators presented the copyright to the WTBTS as a gift (of sorts).

(A quick search found this reference (Reasoning Book):

*** rs p. 277 par. 1 New World Translation ***
When presenting as a gift the publishing rights to their translation, the New World Bible Translation Committee requested that its members remain anonymous. The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania has honored their request. The translators were not seeking prominence for themselves but only to honor the Divine Author of the Holy Scriptures.

17

Imitate Their Faith - Reference & Comments

by Bobcat in

this thread is similarly purposed to this one on the jeremiah book.. i intend it as a source for material and comments relating to the new imitate their faith book that came out at the 2013 wt district convention.. eventually, the book is going to be studied at the congregation book study.

(the book itself says so.

see the letter from the governing body, par.

Bobcat

Thread on the book being printed in Germany. See here.

52

Did The Witnesses Predict the United Nations in Advance?

by TD in

jw
friends

it's been reported on this forum that bethel speakers at this summer's conventions are asserting that the establishment of the united nations in 1945 was predicted in advance by the witnesses.

this is being presented as validation of the claim that the witnesses are god's one true organization directed by holy spirit.. .

the basis for this claim originates with a public address entitled, peace - can it last given by n.h. knorr at the new world theocratic assembly, on september 20 of 1942. .

Bobcat

The WT's "predictions" regarding the war also followed key points in the progress of WWII.

"Face the Facts," which predicted a Nazi victory, came out before the Battle of Britain. Germany was successfully sweeping thru continental Europe. I think Face the Facts was delivered (as a talk) and published some time before France fell. So the next few years after Face the Facts came out must have made it seem an on-the-spot prediction.

The prediction that the two sides would fight to a draw came out after Germany lost the Battle of Britain. This battle ended the Nazi westward movement in the war.

As Leolaia said, "the claim made in 1942 that the Allies may win WWII is an about face of what was taught as recently as December 1941." 1941 was known as the "winter of the century." Prior to winter, Germany began what they called "Operation Barbarossa." This was the invasion of the Soviet Union, and it was spectacularly successful until winter bogged down the German advance. December was probably too early in winter to tell how it was going to affect Germany's advance into Russia.

The "Peace - Can It Last?" talk came out in September 1942. But in the spring of 1942, the US won two major sea battles in the Pacific (Coral Sea & Midway).

So, as far as WT war predictions go, we have:

Axis will win (Face the Facts), while Germany is sweeping successfully thru mainland Europe.

Axis & Allies will tie, (up to December 1941), while Axis westward movement is stopped, but eastward movement is in full swing. And Japanese have major victory in Pacific (Pearl Harbor) and are advancing unheeded.

Allies will win, (Peace - Can It Last? Sept. 1942), after Nazi eastward and westward movment is stopped, and Japanese are being pushed back in the Pacific.

As TD said in the opening post, "It would certainly be fair to say that Knorr (and no doubt Rutherford) was an interested observer of current events." That would account for the WT's "predictions."

18

ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM AT BROOKLYN

by The Searcher in

the 2012 calendar encourages all to examine "for family discussion" aspects of the covenants.

do that - but base your study on the bible only, and then you will form a true understanding of the covenants, especially the new covenant.

on the january/february page, this question is asked, "would abraham's seed prove to be just one individual, or would it be a composite seed?".

Bobcat

Any one else becomes Abraham's seed only by faith in Christ. 'Faith in Christ' is in place of being one of his natural offspring (of which he had none, probably for that reason, so as to keep the 'faith' demarcation clear).

So there is no such thing as a "composite seed." There is Christ, who is Abraham's seed, and there are all of Christ's 'offspring' via their faith in him.

(Galatians 3:26-29 NWT) . . .YOU are all, in fact, sons of God through YOUR faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of YOU who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus. 29 Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham's seed, heirs with reference to a promise.

Good points, Searcher. "Composite seed" is a counterfeit phrase, used to sell the idea that the "seed of Abraham" is more than one, but not more than 144,001.

In Galatians 4:21-31, Paul compares the new covenant with Sarah and quotes from Isaiah 54:1

(Galatians 4:27 NWT) . . .For it is written: “Be glad, you barren woman who does not give birth; break out and cry aloud, you woman who does not have childbirth pains; for the children of the desolate woman are more numerous than [those] of her who has the husband.”

Those in the new covenant at that time had not yet outnumbered those in the Law covenant, but the process had begun. If those in the new covenant would only number 144,001, it would represent a serious failure of what Paul expected.