Posts by Bobcat

21

Christ Jesus vs Jesus Christ in RNWT

by wisdomfrombelow in

i noticed in the bible reading in titus this week that that they changed one instance of christ jesus to jesus christ.

it made me wonder why it was done and what benefit it could have in their doctrines..

Bobcat

It appears that the revised NWT was updated with newer greek texts. The WH text reads "Christ Jesus." The UBS3 text has "Jesus Christ."

See here for how others render it.

And here is a comparison of various Greek texts.

It doesn't appear to be theologically important.

19

Is JW Baptism the Only Valid Baptism?

by Cold Steel in

what is the watchtower bible and tract societys view on baptism?

is it absolutely essential that one be baptized to gain eternal life in gods kingdom?.

and can they tell you who you can and cant baptize?.

Bobcat

There are some interesting comments about Matthew 16:19 in the NICNT-Matthew commentary (R. T. France, pp. 625-27):

[Start quote]

19. A change in metaphor now highlights the responsible role Peter will play in the development of this new ekklesia. Taking up the imagery of Isa. 22:20-22, Jesus declares Peter to be the steward (the chief administrative officer) in the kingdom of heaven [which France understands to refer to "God's rulership", rather than a "government" per se; an abstract noun rather than a concrete one. - Bobcat], who will hold the keys, so that, like Eliakim, the new steward (cf. Isa. 22:15) in the kingdom of David, "he will open, and no one shall shut; he will shut, and no one shall open." The steward is not the owner. He has both authority (over the rest of the household) and responsibility (to his master to administer the affairs of the house properly). The keys are those of the storehouses, to enable him to make appropriate provision for the household, not those of the outer gate, to control admission. The traditional portrayal of Peter as porter at the pearly gates depends on misunderstanding "the kingdom of heaven" here as a designation of the afterlife rather than denoting God's rule among his people on earth.

The metaphor of "tying up" and "untying" also speaks of administrative authority. The terms are used in rabbinic literature for declaring what is and is not permitted. When the same commission is given to the whole disciple group in 18:18, it will be specifically in the context of dealing with sin within the community. Such authority to declare what is and is not permissible will of course have personal consequences for the person judged to have sinned, but it is the prior judgment in principle which is the focus of the "tying" metaphor, and there, as here, the objects of both verbs will be expressed in the neuter, not the masculine; it is things, issues, which are being tied or untied, not people as such. The historical role of Peter in Acts well illustrates the metaphor, as it was to him that the responsibility fell of declaring that gentiles might be accepted as members of the new ekklesia (Acts 10:1 - 11:18), though of course the exercise of his disciplinary authority could also have dire personal consequences for those who stepped over the mark (Acts 5:1-11; cf Acts 8:20-24). Peter's personal authority remained, however, that of the first among equals, and the extension of this commission to the rest of the disciples in 18:18 will ensure that he is kept in his place [cf. Gal 2:11-14 - Bobcat].

The heavenly "endorsement" of Peter's decisions is expressed (both here and in 18:18, twice in each verse) in the unusual syntax of future perfect passive verbs, "will have been tied up," "will have been untied." The construction is sufficiently unusual and indeed awkward in Greek to draw attention. . . It seems likely, therefore, that these repeated future perfects are there for a reason. They change the sequence of actions. . . with future perfects the impression is that when Peter makes his decision it will be found to have been already made in heaven, making him not the initiator of new directions for the church, but the faithful steward of God's prior decisions. In this syntactical form the saying becomes a promise not of divine endorsement, but of divine guidance to enable Peter to decide in accordance with God's already determined purpose.

[End quote. Material in brackets was Bobcat's for clarification.]

Note that, as far as personal entry (into the Christian community) is concerned, God desires 'all to be saved' (1 Tim 2:4), and baptism, as a ritual for entry into the Christian community, was already determined by Jesus (Mt 28:18-20). The commentary above footnotes the fact that "keys" (plural) is more suited for storehouses than for an admission gate. And the example on which Matthew 16:19 is based, Eliakim of Isaiah 22, he had no say about entry into the Israelite community. That was already established in the Law Code. Even so, some personal conduct limitations are indicated for entry into the New Covenant community (compare Rev 21:27; 22:15).

The "faithful steward" parable (Lk 12:42-48; Mt 24:45-51), as in Mt 16:19, may have had its underlying basis on the steward account in Isaiah 22. Luke 12:48 applies it to "all" or "everyone" "to whom much was given" and "put in charge of much." (Compare with Peter's question in Luke 12:41.) That leaves a basis for its application on a much wider scale than just a handful of men some 20 centuries after the parable was given.

The baptism ritual that is added by the WT Society (to be done at large assemblies, the two vows, etc), all of this is best understood as providing the WT with legal leverage over the person being baptised. This is why non-WT baptisms are illegitimate as far as the WT is concerned. See my post # 770 on this thread for a number of links to comments on baptism. See my post # 1025 for comments about "re-baptism" on this thread.

And see Isaiah's comments about "Shebna" in Isa. 22:15-19, who was the "steward" prior to Eliakim, and see if you notice any similarities between him and the current GB.

11

Very Big (and Shocking) Contradiction in the Gospels

by DeWandelaar in

i was visiting a website in order to prove to people that the bible can be seen as a very extremist book.. however... the site also showed some contradictions and although i am aware of most of them i came to one contradiction that was actually very shocking: the part that satan tries to temp jesus christ.

most of the gospels mention this and the timeframe shows that it happened directly after the baptism of jesus.

however... look at what happens in john!.

Bobcat

Concerning John's gospel account omitting the institution of the Lord's Evening Meal (which the Synoptics include), but including the discussion in the latter half of John chapter six (about 'eating his flesh and drinking his blood'), see my post # 428 on this thread for possible motives on John's part.

The BECNT-John commentary has an interesting diagram of the first twelve chapters of John's gospel account which also revolves around 7 major signs performed by Jesus. The commentary uses the table to try to help make sense of the way John has the account of Jesus ministry outlined:

Transitional

sections:

First week,

sign

(1:19-2:11)

Final week

sign,

(11:1-12:50)

Major

literary units

or cycles:

Start of

public ministry

(1:19-51)

Ministry cycle

(chaps. 2-4):

Various responses,

elusive language

Festival cycle

(chaps. 5-10):

Increased hostility,

elusive movements

Conclusion of

public ministry

(chaps 11-12):

Jesus withdraws

(11:53-54)

Inclusion

markers

(related

to signs):

The Baptist

(1:19-34)

Cana sign

(2:1-11)

Judean sign

(2:12-22)

Cana sign

(4:46-54)

Judean sign

(5:1-15)

Galilean and

Judean signs

(chaps. 6, 9)

The Baptist

(10:40-42)

Judean sign

(11:1-44;

12:1-2, 9-11,

17-18)

Ending

(12:37-50)

Midpoint

crisis:

Moments of

major crisis

(6:60-71)

(My first real attempt at a table. It appears that either some of the table features don't work, or I don't. Probably the latter.)

Take Care

10

No Holy Spirit, but 24 elders

by pixel in

"it seems that resurrected ones of the 24-elders group may be involved in the communicating of divine truths today".. w07 1/1 pp.

27-28 the first resurrectionnow under way *** now under way?.

from the time of the apostle john and on into the lords day, anointed christians were puzzled as to the identity of the great crowd.

Bobcat

For any interested, the ID of the 24 elders was discussed in this thread. It includes all the verses that mention these ones and a number of verses that may impact the understanding of who these are.

Tec:

Also, annointed christian is redundant. A Christian... is annointed... with holy spirit.

Good point! A tautology.

22

A christian with an earthly hope can enter into God's Kingdom without being born again???

by Crazyguy in

do the jw's have any scriptural basis for this, since these scriptures clearly state otherwise, john 3:3,5,7 romans 8:9 1john 5;12-13????

?.

Bobcat

Rattigan350:

Your statement, "Being born again is not necessary to enter into in the kingdom," reminds me of this WT article:

[Start Quote]

*** w00 12/1 p. 29 Must You Believe It? ***

THE 12-year-old student was struggling to grasp the basic principles of algebra. His teacher presented the class with a seemingly straightforward algebraic calculation.

“Let x=y and let them both have the value of 1,” he began.

‘So far so good,’ thought the student.

After four lines of what looked like logical calculation, however, the teacher produced a startling result: “Therefore, 2=1!”

“Disprove that,” he challenged his bemused students.

With his very limited knowledge of algebra, the young student could not see how to disprove it. Every step in the calculation looked perfectly valid. Should he, then, believe this strange conclusion? After all, his teacher was much more versed in mathematics than he was. Of course he should not! ‘I do not have to disprove this,’ he thought to himself. ‘Common sense tells me that this is absurd.’ (Proverbs 14:15, 18) He knew that neither his teacher nor any of his classmates were going to exchange two dollars for one!

[End Quote - This was, IMO, a very good WT article. Proof that a good bit of what the WT says is quite valid.]

I don't intend any disrespect. You are certainly welcome to your views. But your logic led you to a conclusion that directly contradicted what Jesus said. "Unless anyone is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God . . . “Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

This also reminds me of how the WT does with the Memorial. Jesus simply said, "keep doing this" (i.e. partaking of the bread and wine). He didn't specifically say when or how often, just, "keep doing this . . ."

The WT counters, 'Well, Jesus was speaking with . . . And they later . . . And Revelation says 144,000 . . . And so, Don't keep doing this, because its not for you!'

But when it comes to something the WT states, the Society's view is, "Why are you asking questions or reasoning on this? Just listen, obey, and be blessed!"

At any rate,

Take Care

26

Aah sweet rebellion.

by Captain Blithering in

sat on the platform reading the wt and simultaneously posting to jwn.

a beard and a tablet on the platform, whatever next?

do i get a badge?

Bobcat

Having the beard and still assigned to read is probably the most surprising to me. (Not that it would bother me at all.) Maybe that's just a USA thing for the WT?

26

Aah sweet rebellion.

by Captain Blithering in

sat on the platform reading the wt and simultaneously posting to jwn.

a beard and a tablet on the platform, whatever next?

do i get a badge?

Bobcat

Do I understand correctly you were the WT reader?

22

A christian with an earthly hope can enter into God's Kingdom without being born again???

by Crazyguy in

do the jw's have any scriptural basis for this, since these scriptures clearly state otherwise, john 3:3,5,7 romans 8:9 1john 5;12-13????

?.

Bobcat

CrazyGuy:

See my post 131 on this thread for a comparison of the terms used in John 3 and Matthew 19.

Note also how Jesus left the options to only two: Being "born of the flesh," and being "born of the spirit." And verse 15 has Jesus boiling the discussion to, "so that everyone believing in [Jesus] may have everlasting life."

Take Care

24

Britain: Freedom Gone?

by metatron in

jw
friends

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2480676/approved-closed-doors-curbs-end-centuries-press-freedom.html.

very sad...... .

metatron.

Bobcat

Metatron:

Paul Craig Roberts, for one, (the author of "Reaganomics" in the 80's) is of the opinion that Western culture, including the freedoms that are at the core of Western Society, and the basic principles of which were mostly fought for and won in Britain, that they are collapsing before our very eyes.

There are a number of articles that espouse his views. For example:

Here

And see here for a full list of his opinions. There are also numerous videos on Youtube wherein he is interviewed. It is interesting that on a number of those interviews he is being interviewed by people with very strong opinions, who often try to put words in his mouth.

Yet, P. C. Roberts main views seem well founded.

So, Metatron, I'm also of the view that we are in the final stages of Western dominance, and especially of the USA/UK, which together (not meaning equally or at the same time) have ruled over the enlightenment. The industrial revolution also parallels this time frame.

It was the treaty of Paris (1763) where Britain was officially recognized as the dominant global power. Somewhere towards the end of WWI, or some would say about WWII, that the US became the more dominant of the two.

Roberts had expected the Western powers, but especially the US/UK, to have diminished before this. He seems to have contented himself with the idea that the collapse of their dominance is inevitable, but he has stopped offering predictions since they have lasted somewhat longer than he thought possible. Yet he sees the steps they have taken to prolong their dominance as only solidifying the inevitability of their collapse.

Their fall from dominance will mark the end of a significant and unique period in human history. It doesn't surprise me that 'freedoms' are diminishing with them. Of course, those 'freedoms' were not granted to all that they dominated over.

I give the US dollar, which is the linchpin of US dominance, maybe 16 months, maybe less.

Take Care

14

THE TRUTHS WHICH ALL BIBLE STUDIES SHOULD BE TOLD

by The Searcher in

1. jehovah's witnesses have a clergy.. 2. that clergy consists of 8 men in brooklyn, n.y.. 3. those 8 men decide what every witness must believe in.. 4. any witnesses who openly disagrees with any of the teachings, faces expulsion & shunning by every fellow witness - relatives included.. welcome to the spiritual paradise!.

Bobcat

Kate:

Thanks for your thoughts on this. See my post # 577 on this thread for more about baptism duplicity and the Bible Teach book. Also my post # 55 & 56 on this thread.

Take Care