Bump (For WT meeting today)
Posts by Bobcat
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21The Lord's Evening Meal - How Often?
by Bobcat inthe 12/15/2013 study wt has the article, "this is to be a memorial for you.
" in it, paragraph 7 (on page 18) makes the statement, ".
27 also, he took a cup and, having given thanks, he gave it to them, saying: drink out of it, all of you; 28 for this means my blood of the covenant, which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins.. (note that matthew's rendition leaves out the "keep doing this .
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Memorial compulsory for "respectful observers" ?
by sparrowdown inmaybe i am ignorant but why why why pray tell.
if i am not jewish and not of the 144k why is it necessary (compulsory even) for me to attend the memorial ?.
what is the scriptural precedent?.
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Bobcat
Island Man:
Enjoyed your post (as well as others on this thread).
Take Care
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21
The Lord's Evening Meal - How Often?
by Bobcat inthe 12/15/2013 study wt has the article, "this is to be a memorial for you.
" in it, paragraph 7 (on page 18) makes the statement, ".
27 also, he took a cup and, having given thanks, he gave it to them, saying: drink out of it, all of you; 28 for this means my blood of the covenant, which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins.. (note that matthew's rendition leaves out the "keep doing this .
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Bobcat
The 12/15/2013 Study WT has the article, "This Is To Be A Memorial For You." In it, paragraph 7 (on page 18) makes the statement, ". . . Jesus instituted a new event that his followers thereafter were to keep annually - the Lord's Evening Meal." The article goes on to focus on the idea of which particular day was that to be (Nisan 14th or 15th).
But the subject of this post is to whether, in fact, Jesus intended it to be an "annual" remembrance as the WT article asserts.
The WT assertion is based on the idea that the Passover was an annual event. Thus, the Memorial should be held annually also.
But consider these points:
- The only two 'commands' about keeping it are non-specific:
(Luke 22:19, 20 NWT) . . .Also, he took a loaf, gave thanks, broke it, and gave it to them, saying: “This means my body which is to be given in YOUR behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me.” 20 Also, the cup in the same way after they had the evening meal, he saying: “This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in YOUR behalf.
(Matthew 26:26-28 NWT) . . .As they continued eating, Jesus took a loaf and, after saying a blessing, he broke it and, giving it to the disciples, he said: “TAKE, eat. This means my body.” 27 Also, he took a cup and, having given thanks, he gave it to them, saying: “Drink out of it, all of YOU; 28 for this means my ‘blood of the covenant,’ which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins.
(Note that Matthew's rendition leaves out the "keep doing this . . ." command, but includes the command to "take, eat" and "drink out of it, all of you," which is less explicit in Luke, although implied. Ironically, the WT is specific, "annually," about what is non-specific, the "Keep doing this . . .", but very much not wanting people to do what Jesus specifically said to do, "Take eat," and "Drink out of it, all of you.")
(1 Corinthians 11:23-26 NWT) . . .For I received from the Lord that which I also handed on to YOU, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which he was going to be handed over took a loaf 24 and, after giving thanks, he broke it and said: “This means my body which is in YOUR behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me.” 25 He did likewise respecting the cup also, after he had the evening meal, saying: “This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood. Keep doing this, as often as YOU drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For as often as YOU eat this loaf and drink this cup, YOU keep proclaiming the death of the Lord, until he arrives. . .
So the two commands (from Luke and 1st Corinthians) merely say, "Keep doing this," and "Keep doing this, as often as . . ." ("As often as" = "whenever" in the rNWT) One could get the idea of an annual observance from this. And the WT has. But that is a far cry from insisting that 'Jesus established an annual observance.' Jesus did no such thing. He simply said "Keep doing this . . ." This is an example of the WT 'teaching the commands of men as doctrine.' (Matthew 15:9)
The WT article quotes part of 1 Corinthians 5:7, "Christ our passover has been sacrificed." (p. 17 par. 2). But note verse 8 which immediately follows:
(1 Corinthians 5:8 NWT) . . .Consequently let us keep the festival, not with old leaven, neither with leaven of badness and wickedness, but with unfermented cakes of sincerity and truth.
In saying, "Let us keep the festival," referring back to "our passover" in verse 7, Paul could hardly have meant that they should practice "sincerity and truth" one day of the year. Also, the reference to "leaven" is a passover item as leaven was not to be found at passover meals. But Paul's application of it is to "badness and wickedness," which again, has to be with regard to year round conduct.
Consider the context of Paul's instructions about the Lord's Evening Meal in 1st Corinthians 11:17-34. Paul begins the discussion this way:
(1 Corinthians 11:17-20 NWT) 17 But, while giving these instructions, I do not commend YOU because it is, not for the better, but for the worse that YOU meet together. 18 For first of all, when YOU come together in a congregation, I hear divisions exist among YOU; and in some measure I believe it. 19 For there must also be sects among YOU, that the persons approved may also become manifest among YOU. 20 Therefore, when YOU come together to one place, it is not possible to eat the Lord’s evening meal.
Notice that the discussion about the Lord's Evening Meal revolves around, when "you meet together," "when you come together in a congregation," and "when you come together to one place." "Divisions" are occurring among them "when [they] come together in a congregation." And this, "therefore," makes it "not possible to eat the Lord's Evening Meal" "when you come together to one place."
Everything about that wording sounds like a frequently recurring event, not an "annual observance." This includes the "as often as" found in verses 25, 26 (which only occurs also at Revelation 11:6 in a context that certainly does not mean "annually." See here for "as often as.")
Paul concludes the discussion in 1 Corinthians 11:17-34 with these words:
(1 Corinthians 11:33, 34 NWT) . . .Consequently, my brothers, when YOU come together to eat [it], wait for one another. 34 If anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, that YOU may not come together for judgment. But the remaining matters I will set in order when I get there.
There is that "when you come together" again. But notice, "the remaining matters [Paul] will set in order when [he] gets there." When did Paul intend to "get there"?
(1 Corinthians 16:5-8 NWT) . . .But I shall come to YOU when I have gone through Mac·e·do′ni·a, for I am going through Mac·e·do′ni·a; 6 and perhaps I shall stay or even pass the winter with YOU, that YOU may conduct me partway to where I may be going. 7 For I do not want to see YOU just now on [my] passing through, for I hope to remain some time with YOU, if Jehovah permits. 8 But I am remaining in Eph′e·sus until the [festival of] Pentecost;
Paul intends to stay in Ephesus "until . . . Pentecost" (mid-May or so) but to "stay or even pass the winter" with the Corinthians (which would require an arrival before late-September due to winter travel difficulties). Since he intends to stay in Ephesus until Pentecost, this places the writing of this letter (1st Corinthians) before Passover (which comes 50 days before Pentecost). So as Paul writes this letter there is an approaching Passover, after which, Paul intends to arrive there before winter sets in.
IF (as the WT contends) the Corinthians only hold the Lord's Evening Meal once a year, on the Passover, that means there is only one observance between when Paul writes his letter and when he intends to arrive to "set in order" the "remaining matters." So, hypothetically speaking, with only one Memorial to be held before he arrives, why would Paul describe it as "when you come together," and "as often as you [do this]"? These words only make sense if the Memorial is a regular, ongoing occurrance. (Perhaps even weekly. See sublinks hear for additional on the idea of a weekly Christian meeting schedule.)
(See also this ongoing thread.)
- The only two 'commands' about keeping it are non-specific:
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1914 - "A Turning Point In History"?
by Bobcat inthe february 2014 public wt has a cover series of articles dealing with world war i, and by inference 1914. the articles describe wwi as 'causing the world to be changed' and as "a turning point in history.".
setting the wt's defective 1914 chronology aside for a minute, how do these statements about wwi coincide with the view of the nt?.
certainly wwi was a big war.
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Bobcat
Bump (While the February WT is still being offered to the public.)
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Did They Tell You?
by Atlantis ind id they tell you they were taking care of the brothers and sisters in need in other countries?..
did they tell you that your contributions were being used for disaster relief?..
did they tell you that your contributions were being used for humanitarian assistance?..
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Bobcat
It would be interesting to know in what way the MAF serves the IBSA. A specific example would be nice to be able to toss around in a conversation.
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Here we go again. Dan 4 and 1914
by leaving_quietly inwtbts published a new article on jw.org (http://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/daniel-4-bible-chronology-1914/) entitled "what does bible chronology indicate about the year 1914?
" in it, it points to daniel 4 as the prophecy and uses the same leaps of insane logic to get from the first and only fulfillment of that prophecy to 1914, using 607 as the starting point and 2,520 years as doubling the 1,260 years in revelation.
of course, there is no accounting for the difference in our solar years and the bible's lunar years, which makes the math have a very different outcome.
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Bobcat
Leaving_Quietly:
That's an interesting observation, ablebodiedman. I was thinking last night about the purpose of Daniel 4, and how part of the interpretation was: "until you know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that he grants it to whomever he wants".
I was thinking about this too.
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100 YEARS OF YEAR'S TEXTS
by La Capra in14:7.. 1988 hope in jehovah and keep his way (ps 37:34).
yes, hope in jehovah, (ps.
(ps.
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Bobcat
Smiddy:
however they have stuck with Jehovah because it was/is the more popular name used in literature .
I started using the term "New Testament" among JWs (instead of "Christian Greek Scriptures"). If asked, I'm going to give the same reason (i.e. 'For the same reason I use the name Jehovah, it may not be technically accurate, but it is what people are most familiar with.')
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Now predicting increase of anointed?
by jgnat ini came across this nugget in the may 2014 issue:.
"are you moving ahead with jehovah's organization".
....at one time, the anointed remnant were like the little one, but their number grew as other spiritual israelites were brought into gods organization.
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the star of bethleham comong from satan
by nonjwspouse infor some reason my husband has picked this topic after months of non communication of anything related biblical at all.
( he believes he came up with the idea onhis own ( he was raised jw and left as a 18 year old...ugh...right).
so since this was his topic my own thoughts have been expressed as well.
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Bobcat
NonJWSpouse:
I posted some research material from a commentary here (several posts, this one and 2 or 3 more that follow in the thread). I used to follow the WT line (that Satan was the author of the "star") until I found this material. It convinced me otherwise. The commentary is quite well reasearched. I hope it can add to what you know. DATA's post above can also be found on this thread. It is a good one to bookmark for this subject.
Take Care
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Watchtower Changes. Why
by new hope and happiness infollowing on from a recent post that asked for a list of the watchtower changers since you left, it would be intetesting to compile the list with why the changes were made.. .
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