Just as an aside, above I mentioned the account in Rev 7:1-8 being an expansion on the question raised in the 5th seal (Rev 6:9-11). Notice how that view helps balance out a chiastic diagram of Revelation here.
Posts by Bobcat
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20Where is the school for the 144,000?
by RULES & REGULATIONS inthe watchtower has many schools to teach their members on how to become more effective in various assignments in jehovah's organization.
they are trained to strengthen and help the congregations and branches around the world.
here is a list of some of the schools the society run:.
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Where is the school for the 144,000?
by RULES & REGULATIONS inthe watchtower has many schools to teach their members on how to become more effective in various assignments in jehovah's organization.
they are trained to strengthen and help the congregations and branches around the world.
here is a list of some of the schools the society run:.
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Bobcat
Hi R&R,
are you implying that there are literal, breathing human members on this earth that are part of the 144,000 and that the Governing Body dismiss them so that the ''remnant'' are silenced and put off to the side?
Actually, no. No one alive on earth is of the 144,000. But some explanation is in order.
The 144,000 of Rev 7:1-8 are a sub-group "sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel." (Rev 7:4 rNWT) "Out of" is the Greek preposition ek. It is used numerous times in Rev 7:4-8 to describe the grouping of 12,000 "out of" each tribe. WT would have you believe that the 144,000 make up that whole nation. But "out of" indicates that they are a smaller group or sub-group "out of" a larger group called "every tribe of the sons of Israel." This can be seen from Rev 7:9 where the "great crowd" are described as being "out of" (same preposition) every nation and tribe and people and language."
It is easy to see that the "great crowd" are a sub-group "out of" a larger grouping that comprises all of humanity. In the same way, "every tribe of the sons of Israel" is a sub-group "out of" a larger group comprised of all of humanity. And the 144,000 are a sub-group "out of" the sub-group that is called every tribe of the sons of Israel."
Now, some think that "every tribe of the sons of Israel" refers to natural Jews. Some (like me) believe they are Christians. But that is unimportant for this post. What is important is to see that the 144,000 are a sub-grouping of "every tribe of the sons of Israel."
As I pointed out above, the WT teaches that the 144,000 are the whole of "the sons of Israel." And they teach that only these 144,000 are anointed with God's Spirit. And from that they want JWs to assume that the leadership is of this 144,000 and that the leadership is anointed with God's Spirit. Every one else are merely friends of these and need to be subservient to these ones if they want to gain life and be friends of God.
This is the gist of the WT's power structure over all of JWs. And this is why they do their best to discourage anyone else from thinking they are anointed and from partaking at the Memorial (which the WT sees as the sole privilege of the 144,000).
The truth is that being baptized in the Spirit is part and parcel with the New Covenant. But it is available to all. (Acts 2:38-39) It is available to all who have faith. But JWs (most of them anyways) have had that faith drilled out of them by the WT. The WT finds them more useful without it. Eventually there has to be some repercussions for that for the GB and the WT. (Jas 3:1)
The giving of the Spirit was the one thing that would make the New Covenant better than the Old Covenant. This was foretold by the prophets. (Jer 31:31-34; Ezek 36:24-29) And this is why Jesus chided Nicodemus for being a "teacher in Israel" and yet not understanding this coming change. (Jn 3:5, 9-10) Jesus said that being born of "water and spirit" was a prerequisite to 'entering the kingdom' (Jn 3:5), which the disciples later understood to mean 'being saved' and 'entering into life.' (Mt 19:16, 17, 23-25)
I'm sorry for the length of this post, but it is necessary to see that. (And I want any lurkers to see this also.) The WT wants its followers to think that being born of the Spirit is only necessary to be in the New Covenant and to rule with Jesus in heaven. There is truth in the idea that being born of the Spirit is part of being in the New Covenant. But the idea that only 144,000 would be in the New Covenant is a huge distortion of what the NT teaches. Paul spoke of those in the New Covenant eventually outnumbering those in the Old Covenant. (Gal 4:21-27)
But back to the 144,000. Rev 7:1-8; 14:1-5 say nothing about being born of the Spirit. If "every tribe of the sons of Israel" does represent Christianity, then, according to NT teaching, all of them would be born of the Spirit, not just the 144,000. The 144,000, as a sub-group, are distinct from the larger group in some way. They have some experience that is unique to them. And if what I said in my previous post is correct, that is, if Rev 7:1-8 is an expansion on Rev 6:9-11, then, the 144,000 represent the "full number" of those who are martyred as Christians. Their "song" that only they know (Rev 14:3) would likely be related to that unique experience of being faithful Christian martyrs.
And thus, assuming all this to be the case, no one alive on earth would be of that group, simply due to the fact that they were still alive. God would know who He would allow to be of that group. (Compare Mt 20:22, 23) And He would also know whether some who had been martyred were qualified as such. For example, during Nero's purge of Christians in 64-68 CE, there were likely Christians who were swept up and slaughtered in the persecution but were living double lives and/or secretly unfaithful in some way. Such ones would not fit the description of the 144,000 in Rev 14:4, 5. So that it would be impossible for any human to calculate how far along it was in the gathering of the 144,000. The "sealing" of them (Rev 7:3, 4) would indicate when they had been included in that number. (And thus, had been martyred.) Only God (and possibly Christ) would have inside information on the progress of the gathering of the 144,000. (And thus, the "sealing" of Rev 7:3, 4 is no secondary anointing which the WT teaches but the NT says nothing about. (Compare Eph 4:30)
I'm sorry for the long winded explanation. But I know that there are numerous lurkers who would find this subject of interest since the WT controls their life as Christians with all of their distortions.
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Where is the school for the 144,000?
by RULES & REGULATIONS inthe watchtower has many schools to teach their members on how to become more effective in various assignments in jehovah's organization.
they are trained to strengthen and help the congregations and branches around the world.
here is a list of some of the schools the society run:.
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Bobcat
You get the sense from all this that the WT really sees the topic of the 144,000 (and partaking at the Memorial) as directly related to their (earthly) rulership over the R&F. And they don't wish to share that with anyone.
There is another possible irony in all this. Some commentaries understand Revelation chapter 7 to be an excursus of sorts. The topic of the 144,000 (Rev 7:1-8) is understood to be an expansion on the question raised in the 5th seal (Rev 6:9-11). And the topic of the great crowd (Rev 7:9-17) is an expansion on the question raised in the 6th seal (Rev 6:17).
If understood that way, the 144,000 are martyrs (Rev 6:11). Which, by implication, means that none of the GB, past or present, are of that group.
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"Great Reset" and the Borg
by mikeflood inwow, just watched a video from the 'world economic forum' , a respectable organization by the way, not the usual conspiracy lunatic theorist.
it says that by 2030 meat is gonna be a treat not widely available like today, that the us is not gonna be a global superpower anymore, instead a handful of countries will dominate and that people is not gonna own nothing but will be happy.. well, that would help the borg to keep the craziness going on.. thoughts?
what's this great reset?.
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Bobcat
The Great Reset looks a lot like pure communism, as Marx imagined it. But Lenin, the realist, saw that tyranny was required first in order to purge the world of all its anti-communist elements ("The Tyranny of the Masses"). Those pushing for the "Great Reset" cannot see as far as Lenin did. Otherwise, they would see what the Great Reset would inevitably lead to.
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New JW study book / method announced on JW Broadcast
by Funky inso did anyone catch the january jw broadcast?.
it's the "spiritual content" of what would have been introduced in the october annual meeting, had the october annual meeting taken place.. morris, splane, and jackson introduce a new jw study publication: "live forever eternally - an interactive guide".. details were sparse, but apparently it is a 256 page book (when in actual printed form), primarily designed to be used in its electronic form, stuffed with links to videos.. it is designed to be "just one book" to be studied prior to baptism, where "all 60 questions that baptism candidates have to know" are found in just one place.. the purported reason is to make jw "bible" studies more "productive", i.e., lead to more baptisms.. splane brought out the governing body's "great concern" that 10 million+ "bible" studies are conducted by jws every year, but the number of baptisms has been stuck at 200,000 - 300,000 per year for decades.
so the thinking is, this new book + a "new method of conducting studies" (again, no real detail, but apparently it involves more "discussion" and less "question and answer").. want to know my thoughts?
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Bobcat
Hi Smiddy,
Here is a PDF of the Didache. It didn't have all the extra WT stuff in it. That's why I said "the particular doctrines aside."
The Didache was more keyed towards Christian living without the convoluted prophetic WT stuff. It was also rather terse in its instructions compared with WT literature. The main prophetic idea in the Didache was the waiting for the Lord's return. Prophetic details and calculations cannot be found in it.
There are a lot of curiosities in the Didache, when compared to the WT. For example, it gives instruction and warning on who should't be given the Eucharist, but assumes that all baptized believers would partake.
Be that as it may, my idea in the comparison above was the movement by WT in simplifying by having just one publication for new converts. I'm sure it will still be bloated with WT speculation that is being passed off as "truth."
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New JW study book / method announced on JW Broadcast
by Funky inso did anyone catch the january jw broadcast?.
it's the "spiritual content" of what would have been introduced in the october annual meeting, had the october annual meeting taken place.. morris, splane, and jackson introduce a new jw study publication: "live forever eternally - an interactive guide".. details were sparse, but apparently it is a 256 page book (when in actual printed form), primarily designed to be used in its electronic form, stuffed with links to videos.. it is designed to be "just one book" to be studied prior to baptism, where "all 60 questions that baptism candidates have to know" are found in just one place.. the purported reason is to make jw "bible" studies more "productive", i.e., lead to more baptisms.. splane brought out the governing body's "great concern" that 10 million+ "bible" studies are conducted by jws every year, but the number of baptisms has been stuck at 200,000 - 300,000 per year for decades.
so the thinking is, this new book + a "new method of conducting studies" (again, no real detail, but apparently it involves more "discussion" and less "question and answer").. want to know my thoughts?
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Bobcat
From a practical standpoint (the particular doctrines aside), I can see it. It reminds me of the Didache.
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I have read and re read acts chap.15 and for the life of me I can't find the part about the 1st century governing body!
by nowwhat? ini cannot find the verse where it talks about several self appointed men that went behind closed doors to render their decision regarding circumcision.
all i see is that it was the apostles, older men and the congregation that came to a decision.
perfect example of why we need the governing body today.
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Thoughts on Zoom
by waton inthe wt sponsored zoom meetings reduce individual freedom, spirituality.
the wt sponsored zoom meetings enables ego maniacs, narcissists to have their influence beamed right into your living room.
conversations that were private, personal are now broadcast, forced on all participants.
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Bobcat
On the plus side of zoom meetings, there are inevitable delays and problems with unmuting commenters. And various elders (who are not so technical) provide a comical show of bobbing foreheads (without seeing the face) and/or unusual angles, and various other zoom gaffs.
So, hopefully, some of that will tend to mute what otherwise seems to be a doubling down on the brainwashing by the WT.
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Being Reinstated
by azl0058 inso my brother recently became df.
he has full intentions of being reinstated, but it is going to take at least a year.
if the end times occurs while he is df, will he still be allowed in the kingdom of god?.
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Bobcat
1Cor 6:9-10 & Gal 5:19-21 lists types of practices that will bar the practicers of such from 'inheriting the kingdom.' Being disfellowshipped is not a practice but a man-made state, created by the WT, not the DFed one. For the WT, creating the state of being disfellowshipped allows them to include other 'sins' that are not really sins. It also allows them to control who is a JW and who is not.
Interestingly, Jesus gave Peter the 'keys to the kingdom,' and the WT claims there is no apostolic succession. (Mt 16:19) Yet, in practice, they believe there is, and that it leads to themselves.
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Jesus speaks in third person
by menrov ini stumbled on john 17:1,2 which reads in net version:.
17 when jesus had finished saying these things, he looked upward to heaven and said, “father, the time has come.
glorify your son, so that your son may glorify you— 2 just as you have given him authority over all humanity, so that he may give eternal life to everyone you have given him.. if jesus had a close relation with his father, would you not expect to read something like this:.
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Bobcat
Hi Menrov,
One possibility, just guessing of course, is that Jesus spoke of himself in the third person due to his prayer having an audience (those present at the last supper). At verse 4 he does pick up speaking in the first person.
In other places Jesus also uses this third person reference to himself. (E.G. Mt 25:31-46) Moses often records himself in the third person in the Torah (assuming, of course, that he is the writer).
Another possibility is that the writer of the gospel account begins his recording of the prayer with Jesus using the third person self-reference as an editorial choice for the sake of people who would be reading the account later. Perhaps this was a normal way of recording historical events. But all the gospel accounts have Jesus speaking of himself in the 3rd person. So it seems to me more probable that this was Jesus own method of referring to himself.
There is an interesting StackExchange discussion of this topic here. (Although, admittedly, the StackExchange discussion goes on to center around the "Son of Man" title from Daniel 7:13, 14. And here is a short PDF on this topic. And here is another web-page on the topic.
In Jn 17:1 Jesus uses the 3rd person noun ("your son"), in verse 2 the 3rd person pronoun ("him"), in verse 3 a 3rd person name/title ("Jesus Christ"), and then picks up the 1st person self-reference in verse 4 ("me"/"I"). Perhaps there was some purpose in stringing those things together in that order.