Posts by Quester

108

What drives exJWs to atheism?

by ros in

jw
friends

a significant number of former jehovah's witnesses come out of the watchtower still believing the bible and considering themselves christians.

most coming out are in a serious state of bewilderment, and they look intently and sincerely for something to fill the huge void of lost religion, lost family and friends, and lost fellowship.

they seek some viable spiritual association with others of like mind while at the same time having become very wary of any organized religion.. what is it that eventually draws so many of us (not me) to agnosticism or atheism?

Quester

Ros wrote:
"I’m sorry I started this thread."

Sometimes things don't turn out the way we expected or the
way we wanted, but that doesn't mean it was a bad/wrong thing.

I learned a lot from watching people's reactions to your post.

There was a lot of talk about logic, but the thread was
absolutely screaming with emotion, did you notice that?

I think people are more ruled by their emotions than
they are willing to admit.

This thread could serve as a wake up call.

I am glad you posted what you did.

Quester.

2

For AmazingProgeny - Other Religions

by Quester in

jw
friends

ap,.

maybe checking out the different religions.

they are one of the most liberal religions on my list.

Quester

Hi again AP,

You and I have very similar beliefs.
I too am learning, changing, growing.
Ask me in a few months and I might have
different views on things.
But as you say, lets enjoy the journey!

Thanks for the reply.
I will look for your posts here and chat
with you more I'm sure.
Quester

108

What drives exJWs to atheism?

by ros in

jw
friends

a significant number of former jehovah's witnesses come out of the watchtower still believing the bible and considering themselves christians.

most coming out are in a serious state of bewilderment, and they look intently and sincerely for something to fill the huge void of lost religion, lost family and friends, and lost fellowship.

they seek some viable spiritual association with others of like mind while at the same time having become very wary of any organized religion.. what is it that eventually draws so many of us (not me) to agnosticism or atheism?

Quester

Sunchild/Rochelle wrote:
"And Christianity itself isn't the only alternative, either."

I agree. There are lots of other choices out there besides
Christianity.

And I would add that not all Christians are supernatural theists.
"Supernatural theism" defined as belief in God as a separate being
out there who sometimes intervenes in the world.

I have found some panentheists, some who just describe themselves as
nontheists. To name some: Paul Tillich Protestant theologian, John
Robinson, bishop of the Church of England, also John Shelby Spong and
Marcus Borg who have been mentioned on the board from time to time.

Rochelle wrote:
"I guess I just felt like pointing out that abandoning Christianity
doesn't have to mean abandoning your spirituality, and that being an
atheist doesn't mean this, either. You have to find your own path.
You have to search your soul until you find what's right for you."

I think Abaddon? said something similar about just because you are
an atheist doesn't mean you have no spirituality.

This might be a dumb question to some, but I'd really like to know...

What is spirituality to an atheist?

I have read that atheism is a rejection of a specific concept of God
called supernatural theism.

Would you atheists agree or disagree with that?

Quester

2

For AmazingProgeny - Other Religions

by Quester in

jw
friends

ap,.

maybe checking out the different religions.

they are one of the most liberal religions on my list.

Quester

AP,

I decided to break out of the original thread, since we've changed
the subject to discussing other religions.

(Was - Re: The posts about exJWs turning atheist)

You wrote: "It was a good experience b/c it taught me that other
Christians have just as much faith and spend just as much time
involved in church activities as the JWs. "

By attending the different Sunday church services, I am
realizing that too. Maybe checking out the different religions
is helping me get rid of any left over jw prejudice toward them.
I remember a time when just walking into a church building gave
me the creeps because, according to the jw's, it was part of the God
condemned Babylon the Great.

I've noticed I'm very "gun shy" too, like no way am I signing any
guest book and don't ask me too many questions. I have to
laugh at myself. I think this is leftover baggage from being
so controlled in the jw religion. Did you go thru anything
like that?

AP wrote: "I then began to really examine my own beliefs
and to change some of them."

May I ask which beliefs changed? I have changed a LOT
and am still changing. I see xjw's still searching for
"THE TRUTH"--that one absolute truth. I've let go of that.
Believing the "right" doctrines is just not important to me.
I'm more interested in whatever will help me spiritually and
draw me closer to God and his family.

Have you tried any Bible study meetings thru your church?
I tried one and I think I like it better than the Sunday worship
service. Or I should say that it fills a different need. I like
discussions and listening to different viewpoints.

AP wrote: "I then decided I wanted to find a different church
with more liberal views. I didn't really know where to start.
I knew of a few that I didn't want to attend. I saw some newspaper
ads for the local United Methodist Churches (UMC)..." snip
"...I checked out their website..."

What I did was go to the religioustolerance.org website and get a list
of Christian religions ranging from more conservative to most
liberal and I am checking out the liberal ones. United Methodist
is one of those and I've visited there and plan to return.

Hey, I unintentionally ended up at a charismatic church one
time. Boy, they really pump ya up emotionally--a little
too much. But I enjoyed it more than I thought I would,
so I am trying to be more open-minded.

Checking out the church website is a good idea too.
I really like the United Church of Christ website. (www.ucc.org)
They are one of the most liberal religions on my list. Not to be
confused with others of similar names like Church of God,
Church of Christ, etc. The local congregation is a little too
"reserved" for my tastes, although I liked what was said there,
ie. sermon, liturgy, prayers, etc.

AP wrote: "...this church is that it fit the requirements I had.
It is small and very welcoming towards new people. My kids
love it and are loved in return. They are active in the community.
The pastor is not full of herself. They don't care if my views on
things are a bit different. I don't have to agree with everything
they believe in order to be a member."

Sounds like a healthy spiritual environment. That is similar
to what I am looking for. The freedom to think for myself
and not have things forced on me. Female pastor sounds
great--what a change from the males-only-in-authority
discrimination , huh.

I am glad you joined in here and look forward to reading
more of your thoughts. Quester

5

The posts about exJWs turning atheist

by AmazingProgeny in

jw
friends

they got me thinking about something written by someone i know from a different website.

she is a really neat person and i enjoy reading her posts.

she has never been a jw.

Quester

Hello AP.

I really liked your post. Thanks for sharing it.

The point about just because something is irrational
does that mean it's not real, ie play, love, etc., reminded
me of something Hans Kung wrote (well-known Catholic
German theologian). He said:

"The proof of God is no more logically stringent than is love."

I don't think that is quite the same as saying love is
irrational, but a similar point perhaps.

Your post also mentioned leap of faith and experiencing
Jesus in a personal way...

After spending the last 9 months researching Biblical
criticism and having everything I've ever believed in
torn down, I am feeling pretty ignorant about God and
the Bible. I have come to that "edge" where I've asked
myself, "Why do I still believe in God?"
And it boils down to personal experiences and faith.

Logical? Rational? Scientific? Emotional? Credulity?
No. I don't know how to label it or define it.
It's a knowing through experiences and there are no words
to adequately describe it.

I would say that faith denotes trust and believing that there is
something to all of this--enough to take the first step and then
another, etc. And in the process of taking these steps, we learn,
we make adjustments, and our faith is affirmed with personal
experiences.

I think a lot of decisions in life are like that--a calculated risk
based on our understanding of the information at the time.

No guarantees.
There's always that chance I could be wrong.
I was soooo wrong about the jw religion.
I can understand why people would be hesitant to trust
and leap again.

I read your intro, and noticed that you mentioned attending the
United Methodist church. It seems that most xjw's are totally
turned off by organized religion, and I was also--until recently.
I've been out of the org for about 6 years now. I'm not exactly
sure why I've been checking out the different religions in my area.
I don't really want to join anything. I think what I am looking for
is association with like-minded Christians. I would be interested
in hearing more about your experiences with organized religion
since leaving the jw religion. Did you check out different religions?
How/why did you choose United Methodist and do your beliefs
differ or do you agree with the doctrines?

Whatever you feel comfortable sharing.
Thanks, Quester

108

What drives exJWs to atheism?

by ros in

jw
friends

a significant number of former jehovah's witnesses come out of the watchtower still believing the bible and considering themselves christians.

most coming out are in a serious state of bewilderment, and they look intently and sincerely for something to fill the huge void of lost religion, lost family and friends, and lost fellowship.

they seek some viable spiritual association with others of like mind while at the same time having become very wary of any organized religion.. what is it that eventually draws so many of us (not me) to agnosticism or atheism?

Quester

Hey Ros,

GHP2 here, who has oddly become inspired to post on this board lately. :)

Good question you posted. I am curious to see what kind of
replies you get on this one.

When people mention logic, it always reminds me of the Star Trek
character, Spock. He could not understand the simplest things
sometimes because he was too logical, too literal. I think there are
different kinds of knowing beside logic and if a person relies on
logic/facts alone they are limiting themselves.

I too considered the jw religion a step up from other traditional
literalistic or fanatical Christian religions. From studying
modern day Bible scholarship and contemporary writings,
I now know that there are other more positive alternatives
out there for me. Quester

7

Finally, an interesting Christian!

by Marilyn in

jw
friends

from the australian age newspaper: .

john shelby spong, the retired episcopalian bishop who calls for a new reformation of the christian faith, was born in north carolina in 1931. he was raised, he says, in a church that taught him blacks were inferior and that segregation was the will of god, that women were second-class and did not deserve equal rights within the church, that jews were evil and responsible for killing jesus and that homosexuals were either mentally sick or morally depraved.

"i have spent my entire life getting out from under that upbringing," he says.. in 1948, he sought to involve young black episcopalians at a youth convention and was over-ruled by his bishop.

Quester

Yes Spong is a Christian.
No he is not alone. I think that Spong is
more radical and extreme of the bunch though.

Karen Armstrong,
Marcus Borg,
Raymond E. Brown
John Dominic Crossan
John Hicks
J. P. Meier

To name just a few that I have found so far.
Although these do differ in their beliefs and they
range from more conservative to radical, I think
all are generally of the modern day scholarship
group. This is where you will find things like,
the virgin birth and resurrection stories of Jesus
are not literal historical facts.

My local Barnes and Noble bookstore as well as
the library are well stocked with these types of
books. I agree with Maximus about being ignorant of
modern day scholarship. I just discovered all this
about 9 months ago. Quester

15

A Historical Jesus?

by uncle_onion in

jw
friends

i have been reading a book called the jesus mysteries and it puts forward an idea that jesus never existed but was born out of the ideas of gnostism.

there are many similarities between ancient religions and christianity, which is very worrying for me.

i have not had a lot of time of late to read up on it properly but here are the conclusions that i have come to so far.. did christ exist?

Quester

I've been studying the historical Jesus for about 9 months now.

I think what is questioned is whether Paul actually
wrote those epistles or if someone else wrote them
in Paul's name--not uncommon to do that in those
days. I don't know that I would call them "spurious"--
which seems to indicate they are false or not to be taken
seriously.

RE Brown in Intro to NT indicates that the genealogies in
Matthew and Luke are not strictly historical. I haven't
read much on this.

I still believe Jesus existed. But I think Jesus as the
Christ of faith is who Jesus became to his followers after
his death and is not to be understood as literal historical fact.

I don't think Biblical myths/legends are untrue or pure fiction.

Myths/legends are a way of writing about people's encounters
with the sacred or the ineffable God. It speaks of
something beyond the normal human dimension.

I think it is more accurate to say Biblical myth means it is
not literal historical fact. Myths are allegorical, metaphorical,
symbolic, etc. Quester

37

I getting bored with this Board

by OlderTom in

jw
friends

i'm just wondering if it is because i have changed and have gained my freedom from the watchtower enslavement or i just don't care anymore or is it that i have been exposed to too much of the same old complaints about the borg and all the false prophecies and the lies?.

i must admit i still get pleasure from reports of the watchtower walls starting to crumble al over the civilized world so i guess i'll continue to pop in from time to time.. as far as trying to de-program and rescue the poor unfortunate brainnumbed watchtower slaves, i think it's a total waste of time after all how do get through to people who prefer to believe in the lies when they know they are lies but they just don't want to see the real truth about the "truth(tm)".

i gues they don't want to see the real truth because it would force them to start thinking for them selves again and for some people that is just too much of a burden to bear.

Quester

YoungerTom wrote:
"but I, unlike you, still believe that the Bible is God's
Word (Society talk) and that the basic beliefs are
bible based. But I have never been a Society man,
don't like them..."

I never left the jw religion for doctrinal reasons.
It was more about behavior than doctrine.
I think they are a high control group.
Information control, behavioral control thru coercion,
threats, guilt, shame, fear even though jw's deny this and
say that love motivates them. Many feel trapped inside the
org because they will be ostracized by family and
friends if they leave and they believe if they leave the org,
God will reject/abandon them. How is that about love?!
Something is very wrong with that picture.

YoungerTom wrote:
"To all the others who have posted to this topic, there is
a lot of anger, and I can understand that. What I would like
to know is, If you no longer believe the JW's doctrines, what
conclusions have you come to. If you want to woo people
away you have to put something concrete in its place."

That is a very good point. I've thought the same thing.
And I know the jw thinking is "where else is there to go?"
(Actually it is whom not where in John 6). And sadly, if all
they see is angry, negative, critical people who have completely
lost all faith in God, they will probably want to just stay in the org.

What conclusions have I come to so far since leaving the
jw religion 6 years ago?

That a relationship with God is available to ALL, not just
those inside the org. And that each of us must find our own
way and make our own choices instead of allowing others to
do that for us. Quester

13

OPERATION of & Sin Against the Holy Spirit!

by Amazing in

jw
friends

when jws ask one of the anointed just how they "know" that they are anointed, they are really asking what it is that god does via the holy spirit that tells them they are chosen.

a "bolt" of lightening?

a rush of the wind?

Quester

Copernicus wrote:
"So what was it? Has anyone else had this experience?"

I lurk here once in a while, but this is my first
time posting.

Yes, I had a similar experience when I was a jw.
I believe it is a genuine legitimate God experience.

I don't have a totally negative view of my jw religion
experience.
I learned things there.
I experienced God's presence there.
I am of the opinion that some people can be happy in
that religion. I was for a time.

But I could only go so far spiritually and when I
could no longer progress I started to feel very unhappy
and stifled in that environment. In other words,
I outgrew the jw religion.

To me, God's presence is not just a feeling or some emotional
experience. It can *invoke* feelings, emotions.

It is hard to put into words.
Yes some people describe God's presence as love, peace--yet it
is not the normal love, peace feelings.
Words are really inadequate to describe it.

Remember that scripture that talks about the *peace* of God
that *transcends* all understanding? (Phil 4:7)

And I'm also thinking of Eph 3: 16-19 where it describes a *love*
that *transcends* understanding.

It's an experience that transcends our normal human experience/reality.
It is, without a doubt, a connection with something greater
than self.

I think spiritual practices such as meditation, prayer can
help open us up to experiencing God. Things like yoga,
certain kinds of music, immersing myself in nature,
work for me also.

Copernicus wrote:
"It’s the only thing that leaves me with even a shred of belief in
God’s existence, despite the massive disillusionment I suffered
as a result of my association with the WT."

I think that is the case with me too.
I would have probably become an agnostic or atheist
if it wasn't for the times when I experience God's presence.

Anyway, I think what you experienced could very well
be God's presence and not just some "endorphin mental
trigger" Quester.