Posts by Quester

82

Prevalence of JW Suicides - Real or Imagined?

by AMNESIAN in

jw
friends

in one or two recent threads i've seen reference to the possibility of a rising number of jw suicides being another of the organization's very dark realities about which it is vigilant in keeping concealed from its pub populace.

is there anyone reasonably informed regarding this?

is there reason to suppose the incidence ratio among jws is any higher than among any peoples/religion?

Quester

larc - you describe very well exactly why I had to leave the jw religion.

I remember all those wt and awake articles about depression,
yet the society never gets a clue that THEY are the problem not
the individual jw. It is an unhealthy spiritually abusive environment.

How much a person does is never enough.
Labeled "spiritually weak" when you cannot do all that is demanded.
So can't talk about it, must pretend and fake it.
The individual is always the problem, not the org.
Don't trust yourself. Trust the org over and above your own conscience.

These are all dynamics of dysfunctional system.

But what is really sad though, is those who are already battered and
beaten by the org, come here to this forum and get battered and
beaten some more.

I always hear that jw's need to learn to think for themselves.
But what happens when someone does that here on this forum?

They are ridiculed, criticized, called stupid and abused all over
again. I see the cycle of abuse repeated here on this forum a lot.

Freedom of speech does not mean trampling on and abusing others.

Let's give people room to think for themselves and make mistakes
and say dumb things and learn and grow without being severely
ridiculed for it.

I recently had someone very politely and discreetly correct me
on this forum. And I was very grateful that it was handled
in such kind manner. Quester

29

New Insights on History of Jesus

by Amazing in

jw
friends

last year on h20 much was discussed about whether jesus was a historical person.

it was brought out that no mention of jesus is ever made outside the works of christians (presuming that all christian historians are biased) except for the the writings of roman historian, flavius josephus.

and, even the brief mentioin of jesus in josephus works are challenged by some as being spurious addtions to some manuscripts.

Quester

I have also been enjoying this thread.

From what I have researched so far, and I am just a newbie at this, I
think what JanH has written is pretty much in agreement with what I
have read.

Since I'm still a Christian, I've been spending more time with modern
day Bible scholars and theologians trying to find out what they are
doing with all of this information. It really is quite fascinating.

Amazing - I recommended JP Meier's "Marginal Jew" book because he
writes extensively about all the sources offering proof of Jesus
existence. I don't recall whether or not Meier's mentions the
Babylonian Talmud, but my guess is that he would have covered that.
Checking this out could save you a lot of time. And if you don't
like Meier, how about Hans Kung or Raymond E. Brown? All of these
are reliable sources available at the library.

I had to get myself up-to-date with modern day Bible scholarship since
assumptions are made based on old views and lead a person down the
wrong track and wastes times. For example, you mentioned trying to
get a copy of a doc supposedly written by one of the "3 wise men".
Jesus birth stories are not considered to be literal historical
accounts. So it seems to me it would be a waste of time trying to
track down something supposedly written by someone who never
existed? Or did I misunderstand you?

Also, who wrote what when in the New Testament is totally different
than what jw's were taught and totally different than what the old
mainstream traditional orthodox Christianity has taught for years.

The authors of the gospels are considered anonymous and the gospels
were probably written after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70.
(Some believe that gospel of Mark was written late 60's?} The gospels
are not considered to be eye-witness accounts.

The historical existence of Jesus is not disputed by any serious
scholars today. However, there really is very little that can be
historically documented about him.

CPiolo mentioned the Jesus Seminar poll where member scholars
concluded that 80% or more of what has been attributed to Jesus in
the Gospels, was in fact, not said by Jesus.

There are different ways to interpret that poll. JS member & Fellow
Marcus Borg says: "AT LEAST 18% goes back to Jesus; these are the
saying about which the positive consensus is the strongest."

Borg also emphasizes that BOTH the Historical Jesus AND the Christ of
faith MATTER and are important. In other words, the Jesus Seminar
work is not eliminating large chunks of the Gospels as of no value.
That is a misinterpretation of the Jesus Seminar's work.

You can read more of Borg's comments at:
http://www.xtalk.org/j2000/debate.html

One more point...Did Jesus visit India?
This story originated way back in the late 1800's by Nicholas
Notovitch. The new books out today supporting that view accept the
Notovitch gospel as authentic. Edgar J. Goodspeed refutes the
Notovitch story in his book "Famous 'Biblical' Hoaxes".

Quester

3

For LisaBobeesa's Mom - reinstatement

by Quester in

jw
friends

was topic: advice needed--please respond.

lisabobeesa wrote:.

"my mom says, 'couldn't i get reinstated and not go out in service?'".

Quester

Was Topic: advice needed--please respond

LisaBobeesa wrote:
"My mom says, 'Couldn't I get reinstated and NOT go out in service?'"

Probably not. My guess is that the elders would not reinstate
someone who did not go out in service. So a person would have
to attend meetings, go out in service, do all those things that
make it look like you really are repentent and want to come back.

It could be a lengthy process of faking it. Is your mom up
to that?

LisaBobeesa wrote:
"She is thinking to go back for only a short time and then move out
of town and become an innactive witness. Do you think this could
work?"

After the lengthy reinstatement process, moving and becoming inactive
might work. It would depend on the elders in the congregations
involved. Some are more zealous about keeping track of people than
other congregations. And remember, your congregation file follows you
where ever you go if they are informed about your where abouts.

Just some food for thought that might help you decide best
what to do. Quester

29

New Insights on History of Jesus

by Amazing in

jw
friends

last year on h20 much was discussed about whether jesus was a historical person.

it was brought out that no mention of jesus is ever made outside the works of christians (presuming that all christian historians are biased) except for the the writings of roman historian, flavius josephus.

and, even the brief mentioin of jesus in josephus works are challenged by some as being spurious addtions to some manuscripts.

Quester

I think the one Josephus reference to Jesus that
is considered authentic is:

Josephus on the Death of James brother of Jesus, in 62 C.E.
Josephus, Antiquities Book 20: chapter 9

http://www.uncc.edu/jdtabor/james.html

The best source of info on this topic that
I have found so far is John P. Meier's
book, Marginal Jew. It's probably at the
library so you don't have to buy it.

Quester

34

For all x-JW's: quick question.....

by Kathy in

jw
friends

if you remember, i've been inquiring about how to discuss jw issues with my boyfriend's sister.

it appears she is accepting the watchtower driven interpretations of the bible, but we are still not giving up.

if you are willing, would you respond, in a nutshell, to the question, "what is the doctrine or belief that the jw's hold that was most instrumental in leading you to abandon this religion?

Quester

I really think that spiritual abuse
gets to the core of the problem.

Which is more about behavior than doctrine.

Spiritual abuse covers a wider scope than
just the jw religion. It helped me to
identify environments that are unhealthy
and also it helped me identify and work
on my own issues.

I wanted to understand what happened to me
so that it would not happen again and so
that I don't just repeat the cycle of abuse
elsewhere.

Quester

11

Christian Debate Techniques 101

by JanH in

jw
friends

3) "god loves you!".

27) "without god, life is meaningless.".

36) "find god before it is too late!".

Quester

hippikon: "Are we going to be tested on this?"

LOL

81

Nourishment for the Spirit

by Maximus in

jw
friends

my observation is that persons who 1) heal/adjust the most rapidly from their jw experience and 2) seem to have the most joy in life are those who read, read, read, in pursuit of what i call nourishment for the spirit.

i've really enjoy the pithy aphorisms you use here, which suggests you've distilled some wisdom from somewhere.

i'm going to ask your help in this thread.

Quester

Also, I wanted to say that was a very moving story you
shared, Maximus.

larc wrote:
"I don't think we should destroy a person's belief system
unless we can help them recover from that loss. I think for
some Witnesses, that ignorance is bliss and they should be
left alone."

I add a hearty AMEN to that!

I think that if a jw is happy in that religion,
they should be left alone.

It's been a tough, often lonely, road--exiting, recovering,
tearing down beliefs, and trying to find new building materials
to strengthen myself spiritually.

For those who are unhappy and feel trapped and want out,
I would offer support and help if I could, though.

Quester

81

Nourishment for the Spirit

by Maximus in

jw
friends

my observation is that persons who 1) heal/adjust the most rapidly from their jw experience and 2) seem to have the most joy in life are those who read, read, read, in pursuit of what i call nourishment for the spirit.

i've really enjoy the pithy aphorisms you use here, which suggests you've distilled some wisdom from somewhere.

i'm going to ask your help in this thread.

Quester

Thanks again for another great thread, Maximus.

I have Brown's Intro to NT, which is very good.
Brown also has a little easy to read paperback called:
"Responses to 101 Questions on the Bible"
A great starter book for modern day Bible scholarship
questions/issues.

BOOKS:

I have read a lot of really good books, but if I had to narrow
it down to only 2 or 3, the ones that changed me the most are:

======================
1. "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse", by
David Johnson and Jeff VanVonderen
======================

I found that book when I was still in the jw religion and
very unhappy and very confused about what was wrong.
I did not leave the jw religion for doctrinal issues,
I left because of behavioral reasons.

That was a "safe" book for me to read as a jw because
I would not read anything written by an xjw.

For the first time someone put a name to what
was happening to me--spiritual abuse.

===============================
2. Books written by Marcus Borg, most significant:
"Meeting Jesus For The First Time"
"The God We Never Knew"
=================================

I discovered Borg's books about 10 months ago
and haven't been the same since.

This was the first time that I was introduced to
modern day Bible scholarship and alternative
views of Christianity and the Bible. This just
opened up a whole new world for me.

It introduced me to several new things.
A. The Historical Jesus Quest
B. A nonliteral understanding of the Bible
C. Other Christians who do not accept the
traditional understanding of the trinity.
D. Alternative ways to conceptualize God.
Supernatural theism as just one way to image God.

Borg is a nontraditional Christian and his books
are positive, easy reads.

Quester

Atheism and Theism

by Quester in

jw
friends

i like this article because it shows the various.

reasons why people believe in god and why.

plus lots of references for research.. http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm/aasi/aasi0057.htm.

Quester

I like this article because it shows the various
reasons why people believe in God and why
they don't. Plus lots of references for research.

http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm/aasi/aasi0057.htm

Quester

8

INTRODUCTION

by ruffian in

jw
friends

maybe i should introduce myself.

my name is susan and i have 4 kids.

i have invited some young ladies into my home on saturday's to discuss the bible.

Quester

Hello SusanH,

Lets see, so far I've seen you ask about:
1. Trinity
2. God's Name
3. Graven Images
4. Crucifix

I'm thinking when I was a jw, you'd be my
ideal favorite return visit!

I think it's a mistake to approach jw's with
doctrinal issues such as the ones above,
because they are very well trained to refute
them.

I never left for doctrinal reasons.
I left for behavioral reasons.
I'd recommend doing some research on
spiritual abuse at your library.

I also think the majority here did not leave
because of the above doctrines.

Maybe a better question to ask here is why
did you leave the jw religion?

That might give you some better feedback.

Quester