Posts by RationalWitness

9

Ratcheting down the pressure on the WTS

by Lee Elder in

jw
friends

please take a look one of the new layouts we are working on:.

http://www.ajwrb.org/newindex.shtml.

will it make them squirm?.

RationalWitness

Wow, Lee! That really STINGS. I'll have to give it some thought, though, whether the site is over the line. My only concern is the feelings of the families of those precious children ... whether they might rightly feel that their children are being exploited. The fact that it is for a good cause notwithstanding, the use of their tragedy without their permission--and particularly in such a jarring fashion--might be over the top. I'll look forward to hearing others' opinions: what is ethical in this situation? How much is too much? Those children (and their parents!) were exploited by the hierarchically enforced fear tactics of the Society; would it be further exploitation to make them the poster children of those advocating an end to such fear tactics?

Rational

Trust those who are searching for truth; doubt those who have found it.

79

What is G-JOBBING for Bethelites?????????

by JT in

jw
friends

had enough asked :.

if you haven't already related to us the experiences at bethel that you told to your mom-in-law, (or even if you already have told us) could you tell us about what you told her.....and...what is "g-jobbing" (sorry for my naivity) .

i didn't want to take away from sl post about his mother but i thought a little insight into the world of the bethelites would be interesting this am.

RationalWitness

Had Enough,

Those who have 'served' at Bethel know that it is not by any means a majority who engage in g-jobs; it was (in my experience) a small minority and generally limited to non-overseers and 'low-level' overseers. Bethel elders as a rule had no need to engage in g-jobbing since they were always well cared for on speaking assignments. (Those who DID were simply materialistic--how else can I put it?) Bethel elders were assigned out typically once a month on a speaking assignment within a 200-mile radius of Brooklyn, and while visiting a congregation, it was common for one or more of the friends to give the speaker $20 to $50. Now, of course, Bethel elders also receive Special Assembly Day speaking assignments, where they are entertained by the entire circuit.

I had my honeymoon bankrolled by a well-heeled JW just because I had been to his congregation a few years earlier for the Memorial. (It was his suggestion, by the way, not mine; I never asked anyone for money, nor did I ever imply I was in need ... although there were a couple of times people could see I had no winter coat, etc., and gave me used clothing.)

Of course, those REALLY high up in the Organization did not even have to rely on speaking assignments for financial support ... they had their regular contributors sending them 'gifts' on a routine basis. Maximus will probably recognize who I mean, when I say that one of my personal favorites used to receive a CASE of Chivas Regal like clockwork. As well as smoked salmon or shrimp flown in frozen. Oh my, I'm starting to laugh now as I think about all the memories.

Anyway, just want to assure you that No, not ALL of those fine spiritual men at Bethel are grossly materialistic. Some are the genuine article, some are self-sacrificing ... but too many are willing to sacrifice others' lives (e.g., the insane blood policy) before they will sacrifice their own comfortable illusion of being God's appointed. And too many of the rest are unwilling to speak up for fear of losing what they have.

Cheers,
Rational

Trust those who are searching for truth; doubt those who have found it.

79

What is G-JOBBING for Bethelites?????????

by JT in

jw
friends

had enough asked :.

if you haven't already related to us the experiences at bethel that you told to your mom-in-law, (or even if you already have told us) could you tell us about what you told her.....and...what is "g-jobbing" (sorry for my naivity) .

i didn't want to take away from sl post about his mother but i thought a little insight into the world of the bethelites would be interesting this am.

RationalWitness

James,

I LOVE IT! Yeah, I remember all the guys 'g-jobbing' back in the 60's and 70's. I never did (not because I didn't want to, but because I was not connected--and those who had the jobs weren't about to let me know of them.) Even in the offices there were what amounted to g-jobs even if they weren't called that. A couple of bros in the Service Department were always forming group-buying circles, with the organizer getting a hefty discount on the latest electronic gear. One even started a multi-level-marketing scheme selling "Slender Now!" inside and outside Bethel. I used to wonder how such supposed 'spiritual giants' could be so involved in making material gain off their brothers.

Thanks for reminding me of the materialistic side of Bethel life. From what I've seen and heard, the "vow of poverty" is a joke (a tax ploy?). One local elder recently bragged to me about having paid a Bethel computer 'expert' to set up his office network.

Cheers,
Rational

1

Never a Truer Word!

by ozziepost in

jw
friends

looked at from afar this statement in the june 15 watchtower takes on special meaning:.

"it takes faith to recognize that jehovah is the one teaching us through his earthly organisation".

it sure does take faith, doesn't it!

RationalWitness

Ozzie,

You asked:

"So yes, it does take faith to believe that Jehovah teaches through the Watch Tower Society. But what type of faith?"

The answer is in a book by the same name: Toxic Faith.

Cheers,
Rational

8

Latest News You WON'T See in Awake!

by RationalWitness in

jw
friends

among the headlines on yahoo!

this afternoon:.

crime survey shows largest drop ever in 2000.

RationalWitness

Among the headlines on Yahoo! this afternoon:

Crime Survey Shows Largest Drop Ever in 2000

"WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. violent crime rate, which has fallen steadily for years, declined by 15 percent in 2000, the largest annual decrease since the survey started in 1974, the Justice Department (news - web sites) said on Wednesday."

story source: http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010613/ts/crime_survey_dc_2.html

Wow! Crime is dropping more than at any time since BEFORE 1975! Must be getting ready for "Peace and Security"!!!

Cheers,
Rational

23

I am new here

by I_am_an_idiot in

jw
friends

hello everyone, i am new in the forum.

let me introduce myself: i_am_an_idiot.

why use that handle?

RationalWitness

I_AM,

You asked about Psalm 37:29 and what it means when it says 'the righteous will possess the earth and reside forever upon it.' You conclude this must mean that individuals themselves would live forever. But a number of scholars today say that the ancient Jews had no concept of everlasting life. What ancient Jews would have inferred from Psalm 37 is that the 'righteous' (as a group) would always own the land ... in other words, that the promise made through Moses to Israel would be fulfilled: if they remained faithful to Jehovah, as a nation they would never be removed from the land, but their 'righteous' descendants would possess the land in perpetuity, i.e. forever. In effect, Psalm 37:29 is a kind of affirmation in behalf of the nation of Israel.

The kind of question you raise is typical of JW thinking: taking a scripture out of its historical and cultural context to force-fit it into a modern interpretation. The Watchtower Society does this extensively, taking Old Testament prophecies that were fulfilled many centuries ago and claiming they have a 'second' fulfillment in the modern-day organization of JWs.

Best wishes,
Rational

49

Help! Help! My son wants to tell elders about me

by LostMyReligion in

jw
friends

i am floundering!.

today my jw son told me that he had seen an email in our family account written to me from an exjw.

it contained very little, but enough to let him know that i was in contact with outsiders about my doubts and feelings.

RationalWitness

Hi JT, long time no hear.

LMR will have to select from among the various comments offered (or come up with another way of handling the situation), based on what s/he feels is best. I offered my suggestion as an additional option to those previously given (not as 'the best'). It's not possible for us to tell from this distance what the local elders are like or how they are likely to act given the fact that it's one person's 'word' against another's. Hopefully s/he can just deflect the whole situation, since they have no physical evidence to support any accusations.

Hey, man, when you gonna get back out here?

Cheers,
Rational

23

Convention is over! (sigh of relief)

by biblexaminer in

jw
friends

what made me the most ill at the district convention.

the public talk had to be it.

although the drama was a close second.

RationalWitness

BibleExaminer,

I had the same reaction as you to the drama--like the pharisees, the GB have (in effect) 'seated themselves' in the seat of Moses. (Matt. 23:1-7) How hilarious that they would select THAT account to bolster their sagging support.

You noticed the complaints in the drama emphasized the fact that Moses had not yet delivered Israel into the promised land? Hmmmm, wonder what the modern day application is? Also Moses' supposedly appointed 'younger men' to certain offices. Hmmmm, are some of the older ones at Bethel complaining about younger ones taking over there? Oh yes, and another complaint (and I nearly quote): 'Why should we allow ourselves to be deluded by Moses? He tells us everything we do ... It is just his clever words that result in his authority.' This is so factual that it may have an effect opposite to what the Society wants!

Cheers,
Rational

4

"you can live forever" as an educatio...

by lisaBObeesa in

jw
friends

hello fellow ex-es,.

i took a class in cultural anthropology that touched on the subjects of language and doublespeak, loaded language, jargon etc.

i set to reading the "live forever" book looking for these things.

RationalWitness

Lisa,

Sounds like you're on to something. Care to give us some examples from the book? Could prove enlightening to Redline et al, who have only been in 'the Truth' a few years. (Why, guess what ... there's an example of 'spin' right there!)

Cheers,
Rational

49

Help! Help! My son wants to tell elders about me

by LostMyReligion in

jw
friends

i am floundering!.

today my jw son told me that he had seen an email in our family account written to me from an exjw.

it contained very little, but enough to let him know that i was in contact with outsiders about my doubts and feelings.

RationalWitness

LMR,

I feel for you. Your situation is precisely what this year's convention drama is certain to produce: broken families in the name of toxic religious control. How appropriate that the drama focused on Moses' authority, something the GB desperately wish to believe they have--and the same authority the pharisees aspired to, as Jesus condemnation reveals in Matthew 23:1-7. (Note, particularly, Jesus words: they "have seated THEMSELVES in the seat of Moses." Hmmm, did they have dramas in Jesus' day?)

In your case, why say anything at all? So long as your son cannot actually produce the emails in question, you need say nothing more than that you discussed some questions/issues with someone over the Internet ... it is personal, and they have nothing specific to question you over. If they press the issue by asking whether you believe the GB is the 'representative' of the "faithful and discreet slave" class (or some such nonsense), you can simply say something like 'It is not up to me to make judgments of what others claim; they can claim whatever authority they wish, and what I believe about it will not change it one way or the other. So unless you can show me in Jesus' own words a "litmus test" whereby faith in the GB is a Christian requirement, I'd prefer you leave my private life private.'

My best wishes to you in this matter. Keep us posted.

Rational