Realist

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Posts by Realist

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  83

  Where is God?

  by donkey in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  why does god allow this stuff?

  according to your teachings, believers, just so he can stroke himself and show how man has failed.

  in fact believers will read this stuff and shrug it off because in the future god will fix it it and it just proves why we need god..

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  Realist

  hello Aguest,

  Imperfect?! I am not sure how you got that from my comments. I mean, I thought I said that the universe and earth were perfect... but it is the "world" that consists of the biosphere that is imperfect. In truth, due to earthling man, all of the 'spheres have problems: the lithosphere (due to man's depletion of the soil), hydrosphere (due to man's pollution of the water); troposphere (due to man's pollution of the air); stratosphere (due to man's depletion of the ozone layer).

  again i have to ask you what you consider perfect? what would constitute a perfect atmosphere for you? do you consider the environmental conditions perfect that caused the dinosaurs to get extinct? do you consider the atmospheric pollution caused by a volcano erruption as ok while you consider the pollution by a powerplant as something bad? how about radioactivity? do you view the natural uranium radioactivity as something good while the radioactivity gathered by humans is something bad? how about dangerous damaging radiation from the sun or supernovae in relative proximity to our solar system?

  I am not sure that I... or science... agree with you. Rather than give you my thoughts, I will ask yours... why you believe that "in the end everything will die... it will be dead cold." I would like to respond to that, but I want to be sure I am understanding why you say what you do.

  science agrees with me...i don't know if you do!? :-))

  there are only two possible outcomes of this universe...a) it will collaps and everything will end up in one singularity...hence everything is dead OR b) the universe will expand indefinitly...in this case due to the inherent nature of energy (2nd law of thermodynamics) everyting will end up at the same temperature...everything will be at the most stable configuration...there will be no driving force for chemical reactions anymore...hence life is impossible since we need energy from somewhere. it is the inevitable fate of this universe.

  I think so. The earth "hangs" where it does... and we know that... so that we can predict where it will be at any given time in its rotation... so that we know on what day... and at what time... the seasons start. We know of its revolution, so that we can know years in advance at what time the sun will rise... and set. To me, such predictability... is perfect.

  a computer or a clock and many other things also do very predictably what we expect them to do...nevertheless they are far from being perfect. predictability is not the distinguishing sign for perfection.

  Well, I COULD say that "a lot can happen in 5 billion years," but instead, I will refer you to Revelation 21:23, which says, "And the city has NO NEED of the sun nor the moon to shine upon it, for the glory of God lighted it up, and its lamp was the Lamb."

  Now, I know that might sound a little far out there to you, but... I have SEEN that glory. And let me tell you, the sun doesn't even come close. For it is that glory that "energized" the very sun we are warmed by. All matter, dear one... is energy. And all of that energy... started somewhere. I have seen where... and the ONLY 'light' there originates from the throne. Truly. Everything else there is illuminated by it, just as the moon is illuminated by the sun. The moon itself has no light, but only reflects the sun's light. In the spirit realm, there is no Light... other than the glory of God... which light is "reflected" by the Son. It's a truly WONDERFUL phenomenon to behold. Truly.

  i am sorry but i have no idea what you mean.

  True, scientists created amino acids and a DNA... from chemosynthesis. But doesn't that also make it "easy" to understand how, through God "in the beginning" came about? Something... from supposedly nothing? But... in THIS world... there can't be life... if there is no death. The nutrients in the soil are from dead things... plants get their "food" from these dead things... we/animals eat plants, which, when reaped... are dead... and we eat animals... when they are dead. All of this... to sustain life.

  exactly...thats one reason why this world is not perfect. and its not just because of human influencing the biosphere...the chemical/physical laws and not human activity make this world imperfect.

  Please see my comments on the various 'spheres, above. Neither the moon, Jupiter nor the sun... nor any other planet, star, asteroid, comet, interstellar piece of matter, etc., has such... ummmm... "pollution".

  how do you define pollution?

  Adam and Eve were given vegetation as food. However, they LIVED... by means of the Tree of Life. Gen. 3:23

  what exactly was the function of the 'tree of life'?

  and... for the LIFE of me, I cannot see how you got "is this a braod hint that JAH is gonna kill me because i can't see him???" out of it. NOT AT ALL... I meant NO such thing. My Father is NOT like that! Nor is He one that derives any amount of joy out of watching what WE do to one another. That was the very point of my response to this thread in the first place. Anybody killing anybody, for any reason, never even came up... in my comment... or in my thought. May I humbly ask you to go back and read a thread or two where I was permitted to share with you just who does what and when? Thank you. Or, I am kinda tired right now, but if you will give me a minute, I'll find you one.

  sorry i misunderstood you!...as a non native speaker your philosophical style is sometimes a little hard to understand for me.

  have a good one,

  Realist
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  51

  Believers, why does God need your flattery?

  by IronGland in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  why would an all knowing master of space and time feel the irrepressible need to be adored by mere insects (relatively speaking), and indeed punish them in the most absolute of terms if they fail in this task?

  indeed it makes god seem very human, although rather immaturely so.

  we expect such behavior from schoolyard bullies, megalomaniac dictators and small children who demand adoration from their beaten dogs.

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  Realist

  it never ceases to amaze me how anyone can possibly believe that the bible (old testament) is inspired by anyone higher than a moron...its such a bunch off BS. mindless, idiotic drivel from an ancient primitiv civilization....nothing more nothing less.

  come on...the oh so wise stories are at best of the quality of grim's fairy-tales.
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  83

  Where is God?

  by donkey in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  why does god allow this stuff?

  according to your teachings, believers, just so he can stroke himself and show how man has failed.

  in fact believers will read this stuff and shrug it off because in the future god will fix it it and it just proves why we need god..

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  Realist

  This does not take into account the imperfection of the world which I take to include the biosphere of the earth, that which contains physical life as we know it. It is only here that the balance is upset; everywhere/thing else in the universe is where it should be doing what it should be doing. Whose says that the cosmic "chaos" is not p erfect? If it's doing what it should be doing, what it was designed to do... constantly recreate... your statement universal CONSTANTS lends credence to that fact. Scientist know what they know today, even regarding things that occurred millions/billions of years ago, literally BECAUSE of that constant or perfection.

  The universe is unstable because it was created to be so. Everything is in its relative place, doing its relative job. Were it NOT then your fear of collapse or thermal equilibrium end your concern regarding asteroid collision and the sun dying out are completely unfounded. Why? Because if it were IMPERFECT all of it is pure speculation, isnt i t, for scientists have NO way of knowing what they "know", for the evidence is also unreliable. Yes?

  Stars are born and stars die. What is the result of such death? NEW forms. Life comes out of death, doesnt it? I mean, a seed has to die (germinate) in order for a plant to grow, yes? Perhaps you think that life is perfection. I tell you truly that it is not, for even wicked spirits have life. Rather, it is LOVE that is perfection and knowing LOVE that leads to eternal life. For God is eternal and God is love. Thus, knowing God... leads to everlasting life.

  AGuest,

  can you define what perfection is for you?

  it sounds to me as if you would for instance consider earthquakes and vulcano erruptions as something imperfect?! is that true?

  right now sometimes new things form from the death of a star...but that will not continue indefinitely. in the end everything will die and there will be no more live in this universe. it will be a dead cold universe...the universal constants will most likely still be constant but does that by itself make the universe perfect? does simple predictability make something perfect?

  i assume you view humans as something special...if so how can you view the design of our solar system as perfect if it is certain that our sun will eventually evolve into a dwarf star killing all live on this planet during the process?

  First, I think your "billions" is a bit off. Scientists currently "believe" life started about 540 million years ago... but that is another subject. To answer your question, though, because of that balance in the universe something had to die in order for life to come into existence. That, in fact, is also one of the very lessons of the Christ: HIS death meant LIFE for many.

  the billions is not off....you probably refer to the first multicellular organism....the first procaryotes are however some 3 billion years old.

  why does something have to die in order for new things to form? it is easy to imagine life drawing its energy from inorganic material or solar energy. it is not necessary in principle for something to die in order to create new life.

  Truly, it isnt. It is only that part of the universe in which earthling man dwells that has BECOME imperfect. And it started when MAN became imperfect.

  how is earth less perfect than lets say the moon, jupiter or the sun?

  No, they did not alter the universe constantslaws or perfections which is what I thought we were speaking about. However, is has indeed altered those perfections with regard to where WE are... the earth/world we live in.

  how so?

  That assumes that you are the "author" of what is "perfect". But what is "better"... or perfect... for YOU... may not be so... for ME. And certainly not for God. But I'll go with you and ask, where does this "better" that you imagine exist? Here, on earth with regard to humans? If so, then you have limited your imagination to finding perfection only in the only IMPERFECT realm of the universe.

  well the point is...in a perfect universe there would be no suffering (right?). the universe we live in will always cause suffering...hence it cannot be perfect.

  Techincally, because man introduced certain uncleanesses, including vermin and other animals, into his lifestyle one way or another. Literally, however, because man, a formerly perfect balance of flesh and spirit... SOLD that spirit... into a vessel of imperfect flesh... which is SUBJECT to disease. As a result, the "suffering" brought upon the SPIRIT... by connection to such imperfect FLESH... has also brought a "ruination" to the spirit... resulting in IT becoming "imperfect" as well. However, although we cannot return our flesh to perfection... (only a resurrection or change to an "incorrutible vessel" can do that)... we CAN return our spirit to it. How? Love.

  Back to your question: Even many of the diseases that exist today CAN be eradicated, but save for the COST have not been. Why get rid of illness when some can profit? If the pharmaceutical companies CURED those illnesses for which they have cures, how then can they profit? Wont they cure themselves right out of business? For example, why not GIVE HIV and AIDS medicines away? Why in the WORLD would you force dying people to pay for medicine to live?

  how then is it possible that animals had viruses and bacteria long before the first human was born? how is it possible that we rely on bacteria in our gut in order to survive? how exactly do you invision that microorganism came into existance?

  many diseases could be cured or better kept under control. the problem is the production of such drugs is not cost free. the pharma industry spends billions on the production of new drugs. in an perfect world they could just give them away....but since the universe is not perfect and we all have to live from something they cannot distribute the medication for free.

  Because we exist in flesh. The flesh is subject to various needs: food, water, sleep, air, blood, etc. And it "suffers" if deprived of any of these. It can experience pain of heart and flesh and it can retain sickness and age. And, ultimately, it dies. The SPIRIT, however does not. It ... must be destroyed (Matthew 10:28). Thus, cut off a mans arms/legs, he will still be the SAME man inside, the SPIRIT man. However, it is the vessel that we now reside in that Adam sold us into slavery to that brings us suffering. Were there no flesh... with its blood... and thus, NO sickness NO aging NO pain NO death there would be NO suffering!

  so adam and eve had these need? or did they live from air and water?

  how about brain insuries? they alter the personality...do they alter the spirit too?

  (Smiling) Again, you accuse the wrong one. True, I cannot prove it to you, now because you do not have eyes to see and ears to hear what exists beyond the physical world, the world of flesh... with its blood. But the legal trial is not yet over, and fortunately, while there are all kinds of witnesses AGAINST my Father and my Lord there are a few of us character witnesses who still believe in standing up for our wrongly accused loved ones even if the odds and circumstances seem overwhelming.

  what exactly does that mean? is this a braod hint that JAH is gonna kill me because i can't see him???

  cheers,

  Realist
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  51

  Believers, why does God need your flattery?

  by IronGland in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  why would an all knowing master of space and time feel the irrepressible need to be adored by mere insects (relatively speaking), and indeed punish them in the most absolute of terms if they fail in this task?

  indeed it makes god seem very human, although rather immaturely so.

  we expect such behavior from schoolyard bullies, megalomaniac dictators and small children who demand adoration from their beaten dogs.

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  Realist

  yeru,

  wait a second...isn't it required to believe in him in order to get into paradise or heaven or whatever?
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  51

  Believers, why does God need your flattery?

  by IronGland in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  why would an all knowing master of space and time feel the irrepressible need to be adored by mere insects (relatively speaking), and indeed punish them in the most absolute of terms if they fail in this task?

  indeed it makes god seem very human, although rather immaturely so.

  we expect such behavior from schoolyard bullies, megalomaniac dictators and small children who demand adoration from their beaten dogs.

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  Realist

  Yeru,

  what about the animal sacrifices and all that stuff? what was that for if not to prais the all powerfull nutcase in heaven?
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  10

  Church faces $100 Million in Suits

  by Amazing in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the resignation of cardinal law of the boston archdiocese has raised the issue of how the 500+ victims will be compensated financially.

  the figure of $100 million was stated in the news, and this means either a large liability insurance payout, or bankruptcy for the archdiocese.

  this is just """one""" diocese in the united states.

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  Realist

  if it is ok for a church not to report a pedophile to the authorities then how can they be sued for that?

  PS: in case the wt would have to file for bancrupcy...do you think that would strengthen or weaken the faith of the Jws?

  Edited by - realist on 17 December 2002 12:17:12
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  51

  Believers, why does God need your flattery?

  by IronGland in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  why would an all knowing master of space and time feel the irrepressible need to be adored by mere insects (relatively speaking), and indeed punish them in the most absolute of terms if they fail in this task?

  indeed it makes god seem very human, although rather immaturely so.

  we expect such behavior from schoolyard bullies, megalomaniac dictators and small children who demand adoration from their beaten dogs.

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  Realist

  the god of the old testament (jahwe) is the result of a mixture of older tribal gods...thats why many of the stories in genesis are written twice...once you have a masterful god who is creating someting good (the name of this god is elohim). then you have the same story but with a vengeful and incompetent god who screws up things and who kills or puishes people (his name is jahwe --> jehovah).
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  51

  Believers, why does God need your flattery?

  by IronGland in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  why would an all knowing master of space and time feel the irrepressible need to be adored by mere insects (relatively speaking), and indeed punish them in the most absolute of terms if they fail in this task?

  indeed it makes god seem very human, although rather immaturely so.

  we expect such behavior from schoolyard bullies, megalomaniac dictators and small children who demand adoration from their beaten dogs.

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  Realist

  i think its time to get over the garden eden story...its made up...based on ancient myth...neither eden nor adam or eve ever existed.
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  27

  WBTS/Demons/Ketchup Song. Any References?

  by SpannerintheWorks in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  .

  does anybody have any wbts literature references where it is stated that the "ketchup song" contains "demonic influences".. an ex-jw friend of mine has heard that the wbts has stated this, and it would be very useful it have it confirmed.. thanks.. .

  spanner

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  Realist

  a currently very popular song in europe.
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  83

  What if the U.N doesn't find anything in Iraq?

  by kril in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  it hit me a few days ago.

  what happens if the u.n. searchs iraq and they find nothing?

  i mean it's kind of scary to think what will happen to bush's job approval rating if that happens.

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  Realist

  hello Yeru,

  i believe the number 500.000 referes only to the land that is now israel .

  originally the jews bought land from arabs...but the problem came with the jewish fighters that drove the arabs out of the country...especially the massacre in 1948.

  >>Finally, where were all the cries for the West Bank and Gaza to be made into a Palestinian Homeland before these terretories were taken in a defensive war by Israel in 1967? The Arab War of aggression against Israel had two roots, ANTISEMITISM and a big LAND GRAB!<<

  again i think this is of no relevance since the arabs don't care to what state they belong as long as its an arab state where they have equal rights.