Posts by shepherdless

41

What Comes After the Watchtower Collapse?

by schnell in

i was going to put this in my thread about pyramid schemes, but i thought it's discreet enough to warrant its own.

1) there are many faithful jws.

2) there are many men and women who could take control and fill the void if the watchtower collapses.

shepherdless

A more realistic scenario is that numbers will be fairly stagnant for a number of years, with some growth in poorer catholic countries and countries with high population growth (eg Africa), but in Western countries the average age of the rank and file member will continue to rise.

My speculation/hope from then would be the following:

In a decade or so, after a few years of stagnation, the baby boomers will start to die off, and decline will be visible to even the most ardent. Some ardent believes might think it means, "we must be so close", but as each year brings in further stagnation and decline, that would wear off.

In the meantime, Watchtower would be too preoccupied with financial issues and financial survival to manage the situation. With no clear leader, it may oscillate between being a little more liberal and being more hard-line. With the network of Kingdom Halls becoming more sparse, not all dubs will be able to attend their bi-weekly brainwashing session, or socialise exclusively with fellow dubs. This would make shunning more difficult and less effective as well.

A further decade along, the Borg would be in a clear downward trajectory. I would probably continue on for another 100 years or so, with a "quadruple-somersaulting double-overlapping pike-position generation" concept, before fading into oblivion.

Anyway, that is my hope.

32

2017 Yearbook - Still Waiting

by berrygerry in

https://www.dropbox.com/s/t06777k65p11e53/20160521e.pdf?dl=0.

may 21, 2016. we are pleased to inform you that electronic versions of the annual items for 2017 will be made available for download on jw.org beginning in october of this year.

this includes examining the scriptures daily—2017 and the 2017 yearbook of jehovah’s witnesses.

shepherdless

Perhaps the 2017 Yearbook has been released invisibly.

On a serious note, I can see the literal interpretation Barrold Bonds and steve2 are using. However, I remember that at around this time last year, there was a leak of the global summary figures. I hope that happens again.

Just to clarify something raised in one of the above posts, others have clarified in the past that the yearbook numbers for any particular year are not for a calendar year, but the numbers for the 12 month period ending on the last day of September or October of the relevant year (I can't remember if it is Sept or Oct). So the 2017 Yearbook will contain numbers for a 12 month period from late 2015 to late 2016.

29

If the GB changed a major teaching, would all witnesses just go along with it?

by stuckinarut2 in

so if the gb changed its "bible based beliefs" on some teaching, would witnesses all of a sudden change their individual beliefs too?.

witnesses like to claim that "their bible trained hearts and minds" make them believe as they do, but we know that the reality is that all witnesses hold their "deep seated beliefs" according to what they have been told to believe.. so what would cause the average witness to question those that dictate their "personal convictions"??.

thoughts?.

shepherdless

If the GB changed a major teaching, would all witnesses just go along with it?

Most witnesses would just behave and respond like this Australian politician, a few years ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kf4nlIEHfaU

21

Is Christianity contingent on belief in a talking snake?

by cobweb in

jw
friends

this is a question mainly for those who are christian as i myself am not:.

to what extent is christianity contingent on a belief in the book of genesis.

i know there are some christians who accept that the creation story is a myth, and maybe the adam and eve story too.

shepherdless

Is Christianity contingent on belief in a talking snake?

Definitely not. Most Christian denominations do not think the talking snake story should be taken literally. Virtually the only exceptions are the relatively recent fundamentalist Christian religions that have come out of USA.

As to what the ransom sacrifice was about, most Christian religions follow a logic and a theology proposed by either Thomas Aquinas (for Catholics), or St Anslem of Canterbury, or John Calvin (for many protestant denominations). None are based on a talking snake, a literal Adam, or even a literal Satan. I am not going to spell it out, because I think it is all a load of rubbish. However, there is plenty to read on the internet, if one is interested.

14

Question for Christians: What Religion are You Now?

by LaurenM in

i know many on here are atheist.

but for the christians on here...what religion are you now that you are no longer a jw?

i'm still undecided as to whether i believe in god.

shepherdless

I will always believe that God (if he were real) would still accept those who were homosexual, were Muslim or Buddhist or whatever, as long as they were GOOD PEOPLE and don't purposefully hurt others without apology.

That is actually what most Catholics and most mainstream protestants already believe.

Also, further to Giles Gray's comment, most Christian religions accept evolution as a fact. Almost all the ones that don't are smaller fundamentalist ones that have originated in USA.

35

Some recent baptism figures in the UK - is there a "bounce back"?

by freddo in

jw
friends

well, round my way (south of the uk) all the way up to and including the regional conventions this summer, baptism numbers have been extremely low.

but i have just received news of three recent circuit assembly days where the figures seem to be higher.

(all have been across the last three weekends at a uk assembly hall in october).

shepherdless

Darkspilver: Excluding the anomalies of very low publisher numbers and high ratio countries... It seems interesting there's really only three significant countries reporting similiar increases to Britain back in the 1980's, namely
Angola 1:210, 111,123 publishers, 8% increase
Philippines 1:499, 199,551 publishers, 5% increase
Russia 1:832, 172,977 publishers, 5% increase

I think the most likely reason for the supposed increase in Russia is the annexation of Crimea. If you look at the corresponding drop in Ukraine and do a back-of-envelope calc using Crimea's population, it seems to explain both the drop in Ukraine and the increase in Russia.

Angola's numbers are strange, especially when compared to some neighboring countries (the 2 Congos, Malawi). Also note that the increase in Angola is way above the number of baptisms.

In relation to Philippines, Watchtower seems to have more success in poorer Catholic countries, and perhaps this is an example of that. The ratio of publisher to population suggests there will be a lot more increase before there is a plateau.

556

The Watchtower are Right About Blood...

by cofty in

... but, they fail to take note of one important detail.. i believe that if we are going to have any chance of reasoning with a jw about blood, this is the place we need to begin.. don't try to convince them that it was only a dietary law.

it wasn't, and they will never go along with it.. don't tell them that saving a life is more important than obeying a law, even a seemingly trivial one.

they take pride in obedience.

shepherdless

Marked [Note: there are 2 threads]

Excellent work, Cofty.

14

Statue of Marsyas died on a stake?

by enigma1863 in

so jws have been spreading this picture around claiming it supports the roman torture stake belief.

this is the statue of marsyas the satyr, a greek mythical creature.

he lost a challenge to apollo and was flayed.

shepherdless

Someone years ago called Leolaia posted an excellent and thoroughly researched article on the issue of what wooden implement was used to kill Jesus, titled "The facts on crucifixion, stauros, and the "torture stake". Here is a link:

https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/92381/facts-on-crucifixion-stauros-torture-stake

4

I need to know what is truth?

by Chook in

is it a perception only.

shepherdless

There have been some threads on this, or similar to this, in the past. They seem to end up being duels between sbf and Cofty.

My 2c worth:

"Truths" can be divided into "absolute truths" and "perceptions". Some people confuse the issue by mixing terminology.

On any particular issue there is an "absolute truth", independent of what one may or may not observe. However, in very many situations, we have no way of knowing "absolute truths". We have to rely on our observations and other limited information. These allow us to interpret some things to be correct and others to be incorrect. They are only perceptions, but they are clearly true relative to alternative propositions. I have heard them called "relative truths".

Some people will point out an example where a "relative truth" (ie a perception mis-labelled as a "truth") was not truth, and highlight the conundrum. There is no conundrum, it is just word games.

Example: On another thread, sbf used the analogy of an earthworm's view of world. As far as the earthworm is concerned, the world is flat. That would be a true statement as far as the worm is concerned. Well, actually, no. It is just the worm's perception.

We perceive the world to be round, which is also a perception (or relative truth). This probably matches the absolute truth, in this case. However, if an alien from the 6th dimension looked at the Earth and could see that in fact the Earth was not round, that would not mean that the absolute truth had changed. It would mean our perception was wrong.

I will stop, now.

9

another kingdom hall closing

by nowwhat? in

this one in avon lake ohio 25 miles west of cleveland.

only one congregation there.

average attendance was only 40..

shepherdless

I am not very well connected to the JW world, but I know of a congregation that was disbanded and another that is struggling for numbers, in my country.

I am planning to post something on the UK accounts, released a couple of months ago. (I haven't had the time, but there are some interesting points to make.) One thing I noticed is that it appears that there was only one "new-build" Kingdom Hall ("Ferryfield") in the whole of the territory known as "Britain", in the last financial year.