Posts by shepherdless

22

Can JWs really vote now , since when?

by Crazyguy in

is this true??

?.

shepherdless

steve2 - I am certain that, in countries or states where voting is compulsory (e.g., Australia), the organization advised Witnesses they could register to vote and go into voting booths, strike out all the names on the voting forms and place them in the ballot box.

Actually it is a criminal offence in Australia to encourage people to vote informally. I understand Watchtower instead advises its members to simply not turn up to vote. The Aust Electoral Commission sends letters to anyone who doesn't vote, with a small fine (A$20 or so). There are a number of grounds to avoid the fine, including religious grounds, and the AEC always accepts being a JDub as a legitimate excuse. Further, most born-in JDubs never apply to be on the electoral roll in the first place, so they don't even get the AEC letter.

Undercover - If a JW in the US was DFd for voting, would their be a civil rights violation? I know the Civil Rights Act of 65 was more about race and color, but to deny (through threat of punishment by shunning) a citizen the right to vote seems to be on a slippery legal slope...

That is a damn good point. Most of the Voting Rights Act of 1965 relates to what States may not do, and so doesn't apply. However, Section 11(b) reads in part:

No person, whether acting under color of law or otherwise, shall intimidate, threaten, or coerce, or attempt to intimidate, threaten, or coerce any person for voting or attempting to vote, or intimidate, threaten, or coerce, or attempt to intimidate, threaten, or coerce any person for urging or aiding any person to vote or attempt to vote...

I can't see how Watchtower is not in breach of that section.

Edit: I didn't see comments on this issue by Island Man and others, before posting.

30

Will Jehovah`s Witnesses join with other religions in Compensation Payouts ?

by smiddy in

justice mcclellen asked g.jackson about compensation for victims of child abuse , and mcclellan suggested it be by a consortium of groups , presumably religious and secular in nature as a pool to dispense approppiate compensation to all of the victims involved .. g.jackson hesitated and said they would have to look at the details of that proposal , before committing to it.. jehovah`s witnesses consider themselves as the only true religion and ,all others as false religion .. they take pains to separate themselves from from any association with other religions , not even being included in newspaper notices about church services.they want to keep themselves separate and distinct from false religion as they see them.. so how do you think they will handle this suggestion / requirement ?

will they join in aligning themselves with "babylon the great" in compensation .?.

didn`t they align themselves with another religion in the u.s.a. some years ago , that had to do with the w.t.

shepherdless

What's stopping the dopes in Brooklyn playing hardball, closing down every major asset and siphoning off the vast majority of its money in Australia to the mother ship?

They have 800 congregations in Aust. That probably equates to around 400 Kingdom Halls, mostly in urban areas. They are probably worth A$ 500k each, probably more, so A$ 200 million total, or more. Title to each would still be in the name of the Aust entity. There is probably a trust deed involved, for each KH, but that may not be effective in protecting them from creditors. (This is a complicated area, but Google "tracing remedy equity" or "constructive trust".)

It is one thing for your local small business to play hardball, close shop, burn the books and restart somewhere else. It is not really feasible for a multinational to do the same, unless they want to abandon Australia altogether, and even then, it is problematic.

31

More bad news for the Organisation in Australia

by no-zombie in

it appears the the commonwealth government is bringing in a national compensation scheme for victims of institutional child sexual abuse with individuals able to claim up to $150,000 each.

it's clear that the australian government will not be able to fund this program without serious money from the offending churches.

so it's bad news for the organization today.. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-04/government-announces-redress-for-abuse-victims/7996092.

shepherdless

The article goes on to point out that the Northen Territory,and the Australian Capital Territory along with South Australia have not/will not sign up to the scheme, and Western Australia`s position remains unclear.

I am pretty sure that this relates to the fact that many of the victims were in orphanages or other state care facilities. It won't impact JW victims. I suspect the 3 state and territories named don't want to be part of it because there were very few recorded cases there. WA probably can't commit due to the upcoming election.

from reading elsewhere, it appears that the govt will fund the scheme to the extent that an offending organisation has disappeared and has no successor. It also appears that $150,000 might be the maximum amount, rather than a set amount. $4 billion / 65,000 victims suggests $60,000 might be a more typical payout.

If there ar 1000 JW cases, that would suggest that Watchtower would have to contribute A$60 million, to be part of the scheme.

It seems to me, realistically, Watchtower has 3 options:

1. Contribute the $60 million, thereby closing off most of the future publicity. To do so, they would probably need some funding internationally.

2. Not join the scheme and litigate each case individually. This would probably be more expensive in the long run, and very damaging to the JW brand.

3. Try to avoid it using insolvency laws and protection. I don't think this is a realistic option, because the total value of the Kingom Halls in Australia would be well above A$60 million. Even if they can exclude the Kingdom Halls, they would be famous in Australia as the religion that went insolvent. Field service would be particularly miserable, there.

I think if they are half sensible, they will go with option 1.

31

More bad news for the Organisation in Australia

by no-zombie in

it appears the the commonwealth government is bringing in a national compensation scheme for victims of institutional child sexual abuse with individuals able to claim up to $150,000 each.

it's clear that the australian government will not be able to fund this program without serious money from the offending churches.

so it's bad news for the organization today.. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-04/government-announces-redress-for-abuse-victims/7996092.

shepherdless

My reading of the article is that Watchtower Australia has the option of joining the scheme, or risk being sued for greater amounts in individual cases. The Catholic Church is clearly jumping at the chance to join the scheme.

How is Watchtower Australia going to afford to pay out A$150,000 per case (ie A$150 million if there are 1000 cases)? I recall seeing Watchtower Australia's accounts a few years ago, and it was only A$18 million. That figure probably didn't include the Kingdom Halls, but still...

Further, this scheme is likely to bring more claims to the surface. I wonder what Watchtower will do.

41

What Comes After the Watchtower Collapse?

by schnell in

i was going to put this in my thread about pyramid schemes, but i thought it's discreet enough to warrant its own.

1) there are many faithful jws.

2) there are many men and women who could take control and fill the void if the watchtower collapses.

shepherdless

A more realistic scenario is that numbers will be fairly stagnant for a number of years, with some growth in poorer catholic countries and countries with high population growth (eg Africa), but in Western countries the average age of the rank and file member will continue to rise.

My speculation/hope from then would be the following:

In a decade or so, after a few years of stagnation, the baby boomers will start to die off, and decline will be visible to even the most ardent. Some ardent believes might think it means, "we must be so close", but as each year brings in further stagnation and decline, that would wear off.

In the meantime, Watchtower would be too preoccupied with financial issues and financial survival to manage the situation. With no clear leader, it may oscillate between being a little more liberal and being more hard-line. With the network of Kingdom Halls becoming more sparse, not all dubs will be able to attend their bi-weekly brainwashing session, or socialise exclusively with fellow dubs. This would make shunning more difficult and less effective as well.

A further decade along, the Borg would be in a clear downward trajectory. I would probably continue on for another 100 years or so, with a "quadruple-somersaulting double-overlapping pike-position generation" concept, before fading into oblivion.

Anyway, that is my hope.

32

2017 Yearbook - Still Waiting

by berrygerry in

https://www.dropbox.com/s/t06777k65p11e53/20160521e.pdf?dl=0.

may 21, 2016. we are pleased to inform you that electronic versions of the annual items for 2017 will be made available for download on jw.org beginning in october of this year.

this includes examining the scriptures daily—2017 and the 2017 yearbook of jehovah’s witnesses.

shepherdless

Perhaps the 2017 Yearbook has been released invisibly.

On a serious note, I can see the literal interpretation Barrold Bonds and steve2 are using. However, I remember that at around this time last year, there was a leak of the global summary figures. I hope that happens again.

Just to clarify something raised in one of the above posts, others have clarified in the past that the yearbook numbers for any particular year are not for a calendar year, but the numbers for the 12 month period ending on the last day of September or October of the relevant year (I can't remember if it is Sept or Oct). So the 2017 Yearbook will contain numbers for a 12 month period from late 2015 to late 2016.

29

If the GB changed a major teaching, would all witnesses just go along with it?

by stuckinarut2 in

so if the gb changed its "bible based beliefs" on some teaching, would witnesses all of a sudden change their individual beliefs too?.

witnesses like to claim that "their bible trained hearts and minds" make them believe as they do, but we know that the reality is that all witnesses hold their "deep seated beliefs" according to what they have been told to believe.. so what would cause the average witness to question those that dictate their "personal convictions"??.

thoughts?.

shepherdless

If the GB changed a major teaching, would all witnesses just go along with it?

Most witnesses would just behave and respond like this Australian politician, a few years ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kf4nlIEHfaU

21

Is Christianity contingent on belief in a talking snake?

by cobweb in

jw
friends

this is a question mainly for those who are christian as i myself am not:.

to what extent is christianity contingent on a belief in the book of genesis.

i know there are some christians who accept that the creation story is a myth, and maybe the adam and eve story too.

shepherdless

Is Christianity contingent on belief in a talking snake?

Definitely not. Most Christian denominations do not think the talking snake story should be taken literally. Virtually the only exceptions are the relatively recent fundamentalist Christian religions that have come out of USA.

As to what the ransom sacrifice was about, most Christian religions follow a logic and a theology proposed by either Thomas Aquinas (for Catholics), or St Anslem of Canterbury, or John Calvin (for many protestant denominations). None are based on a talking snake, a literal Adam, or even a literal Satan. I am not going to spell it out, because I think it is all a load of rubbish. However, there is plenty to read on the internet, if one is interested.

14

Question for Christians: What Religion are You Now?

by LaurenM in

i know many on here are atheist.

but for the christians on here...what religion are you now that you are no longer a jw?

i'm still undecided as to whether i believe in god.

shepherdless

I will always believe that God (if he were real) would still accept those who were homosexual, were Muslim or Buddhist or whatever, as long as they were GOOD PEOPLE and don't purposefully hurt others without apology.

That is actually what most Catholics and most mainstream protestants already believe.

Also, further to Giles Gray's comment, most Christian religions accept evolution as a fact. Almost all the ones that don't are smaller fundamentalist ones that have originated in USA.

35

Some recent baptism figures in the UK - is there a "bounce back"?

by freddo in

jw
friends

well, round my way (south of the uk) all the way up to and including the regional conventions this summer, baptism numbers have been extremely low.

but i have just received news of three recent circuit assembly days where the figures seem to be higher.

(all have been across the last three weekends at a uk assembly hall in october).

shepherdless

Darkspilver: Excluding the anomalies of very low publisher numbers and high ratio countries... It seems interesting there's really only three significant countries reporting similiar increases to Britain back in the 1980's, namely
Angola 1:210, 111,123 publishers, 8% increase
Philippines 1:499, 199,551 publishers, 5% increase
Russia 1:832, 172,977 publishers, 5% increase

I think the most likely reason for the supposed increase in Russia is the annexation of Crimea. If you look at the corresponding drop in Ukraine and do a back-of-envelope calc using Crimea's population, it seems to explain both the drop in Ukraine and the increase in Russia.

Angola's numbers are strange, especially when compared to some neighboring countries (the 2 Congos, Malawi). Also note that the increase in Angola is way above the number of baptisms.

In relation to Philippines, Watchtower seems to have more success in poorer Catholic countries, and perhaps this is an example of that. The ratio of publisher to population suggests there will be a lot more increase before there is a plateau.