Posts by Saethydd

36

Does enforced shunning violate free will?

by poopie in

jw
friends

and ..

Saethydd

We live in a culture of values. Our culture has determined that physical abuse cannot be tolerated. Extortion cannot be tolerated. By making the choice to extort or cause physical abuse you are also choosing the consequences of that choice.

I suppose you are right, and unfortunately, emotional abuse is a lot harder identify and prove. Thus laws that prevent such abuse are not widely implemented.

Religious freedom does have some limits. You are correct, you cannot stone someone (physical abuse again) Someone choosing to shun you is not them encroaching on your liberty, they are execising their own liberty. The bottom line is they have the right to shun you. If I do not want to talk to you, for religious or other reasons, I can refuse to talk to you. I can even use our secular court system to enforce that you dont talk to me.

I would agree that an individual has the right to refuse contact with anyone they wish. (However, I also view doing so for the reason that you don't share the same religious view as being incredibly petulant.) It seems to me, though, that an organization had ought to be held accountable for its policies that cause emotional damage to people. Ah well, I don't expect they ever will be.

21

What is the name of this specific book?

by QuestionAskerPersonMan in

i'm taking a class, and we are learning about jws.

my teacher is talking about a "big brown book" that is used for any questions or scriptures quoted by the person who jws are talking to.

he used it in the context that if they don't know the answer off the top of their head, they look for the verse in this book.. what is the name of this book?.

Saethydd

What is the course that you are taking?

If they are discussing JWs I'd guess a religion course.

36

Does enforced shunning violate free will?

by poopie in

jw
friends

and ..

Saethydd

Yes!!! Anything!...... (to take your example.....now your going to be arrested)

Exactly, they go to jail because they used physical pain to get what they want. Religions like the JWs and Scientologists use emotional pain to get what they want, making it comparably bad.

The difference is our culture has deemed personal and religious freedom as being EXTREMELY important!

But even religious freedom is supposed to have its limits, that limit is when it starts to encroach on the liberty of other people, or when it starts to harm other people who have not chosen to follow it. For example, in the United States one can't stone a gay person just because their religious text calls for it. (Not anymore anyway)

The JW religion both harms those who no longer follow it, and it works against a current member's liberty to choose their own religion (without being systematically persecuted) by advocating a practice that causes severe emotional damage to people who try to leave.

You say that a religion has the right to have requirements for membership, and I agree, but they have limits to what they can require. To illustrate I'll consider this from another angle. A corporation has the right to expect certain things from its employees, but those things can't be a violation of their rights. If any corporation told you that you would be fired unless you stop talking to your family or any friends who happen to be former employees themselves, I feel fairly certain that a wrongful termination lawsuit would follow.

36

Does enforced shunning violate free will?

by poopie in

jw
friends

and ..

Saethydd

Saeth... you are not wrong in that individuals can be df or da for openly associated with a df or da person. I would question you as to what you mean by "force"? The company is telling and individual... if you want to be a member you have to shun... So an individual has to say "i want to be a member therefore I am making the choice to shun this person" If they CHOOSE to shun then they have made a value judgement for themselves that being a member is more important than contact with the person who is to be shunned.

Well, couldn't that argument be applied to anything? "No officer, I didn't extort money from him, he just chose to keep his kneecaps intact, instead of keeping the money he had in his safe."

If you are taking a negative action against a certain behavior then you are enforcing against the behavior.

36

Does enforced shunning violate free will?

by poopie in

jw
friends

and ..

Saethydd

There is no such thing as "enforced shunning". That's not to minimise the powerful, coercive effect of Watchtowers hold over its members but ultimately shunning is a choice that every individual JW must be held accountable for.

Perhaps I am wrong, but I was under the impression that freely and openly associating with a disfellowshipped person is something one can get disfellowshipped for. Therefore, if that person does not shun, then they will be shunned themselves. That sounds like "enforced shunning" to me.

10

Picking up the pieces

by longgone in

just needing a listening ear, so in advance thanks for being here, no one other than ex-jw's could understand.

they may try, but i think only a person who lived through it could know what's its really like.. i wish i could be supporting others here but i'm so broken myself i can't seem to do that yet.

i hope that will come in time though.. for now, i'm trying to undo the damage done to my family by the wts.

Saethydd

I'm only a young man myself, still haven't left my parents home, so I don't know how much practical advice I can offer you. I will say this, though, I think you've made steps in the right direction with leaving the JWs and seeking out professional help. The only further advice I could offer would be to do your best to create a circle of friends, develop a support system that spreads beyond your family and do the best you can to deepen the support given and received between your family including your other children.

28

Sparlock is making his rounds again

by stillin in

i was at the meeting last night and the dreadful video about caleb and sparlock was forced upon the audience.

honestly, i had forgotten how bad it was.

the mother's manipulative over-reaction and caleb's acceptance that his toy was evil.

Saethydd

@sparky1 Oh I wouldn't be too sure about that, I know some really committed JWs that wouldn't even let their kids watch Disney movies with magic. (Glad mine weren't like that, I even got to watch Lord of the Rings for awhile until my parents changed their view a few years back.)

21

Are Children born crippled/diseased, uncared for, and dying prematurely proof that God does not exist?

by anointed1 in

are children born crippled/diseased, uncared for, and dying prematurely proof that god does not exist?.

1) what do children born healthy and well cared for prove?

2) what do babies aborted (many of whom might have led a normal healthy life, and some of whom might have contributed much to the society like many scientists, doctors, engineers ....) prove?.

Saethydd

Are Children born crippled/diseased, uncared for, and dying prematurely proof that God does not exist?
If so,
1) What do children born healthy and well cared for prove?
2) What do babies aborted (many of whom might have led a normal healthy life, and some of whom might have contributed much to the society like many scientists, doctors, engineers ....) prove?
3) What do babies killed in wars (some of which are created for the sake of war) prove?

I will use the word indicates here instead of "proves," because "proof" requires a large body of evidence, therefore these few pieces of evidence don't qualify.

I would say that things indicate a random selection for life and death, not completely random mind you because a certain amount is determined by genetics, chemistry, and society, but it is somewhat random and chaotic nonetheless.

28

Sparlock is making his rounds again

by stillin in

i was at the meeting last night and the dreadful video about caleb and sparlock was forced upon the audience.

honestly, i had forgotten how bad it was.

the mother's manipulative over-reaction and caleb's acceptance that his toy was evil.

Saethydd

I can't help but notice how they failed to define magic in that video. Perhaps because magic can be considered anything that defies natural explanation. Say, for example, parting an ocean with a staff, or raising people from the dead. The fact is, the Bible is full of humans who invoke magic, (referred to as miracles) to accomplish things.

It could even be argued that Moses was in fact, a "Warrior Wizard," after all he used magic to bring the Israelites out of Egypt and then organized the nation like a warrior would under Joshua.

19

Stranger asks about your kids mental wellness. ..

by purrpurr in

last night at the meeting there was a suggested presentation about the new mags, which cover the issue of depression in minors.

the jw jumps straight from "hi how are ya" to "how is your kids mental well-being " and of course the hh is more than happy to discuss the inner workings of their child's mind with a stranger whose just knockedmon their door(!).

if it was me i'd be majorly creeper out!.

Saethydd

Another thing, I fail to see how further burdening your teenager with strict rules that build their "spirituality," will somehow make them less depressed. Especially, rules which, by nature of and adolescents physiology and psychology they can not but help to fall short of, in their thoughts if not their actions. If anything this is likely to spiral them further into depression, based on feelings of guilt, a phenomenon I'm all too familiar with amongst my peers.