Posts by jeremiah18:5-10

375

The Governing Body intends to announce significant changes in academic literature (DOCTRINES) - Brazil

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

dear randall.

good morning!.

here is the daniel of brazil (former bethel).. this week at the forum of former jehovah's witnesses had an interesting news!

jeremiah18:5-10

They are going to finally respond to Anointed JW.com's letters and officially announce that they are the FDS and acknowledge that the heavenly hope is the only true hope.

19

I have a question for any ex or current elder or co.

by blindnomore in

1 how long does the society keep records of publishers diciplinery actions at cong level and at the branch ?.

2 how would you respond to the society's claim that they are not responsible for the criminal actions of the rank and file?.

Records are kept in the "Congregation Permanent File" thus the implication was to keep indefinitely, until the person passed away. I tried to find direction on how long to keep them but never could find direction in print when I served as Secretary. Therefore I never threw any of them away.

127

Introducing Mrs Cedars...

by cedars in

jw
friends

i just thought you should know that mrs cedars has finally taken the plunge and joined the forum.

she was able to log on for the first time yesterday.. though we both "awakened" at different stages, mrs cedars was very supportive and non-judgmental when i first began exploring my beliefs from a critical standpoint.

she is currently in the process of reading crisis of conscience and aquainting herself with some of the facts of witness history that were hitherto unknown.

jeremiah18:5-10

Welcome Mrs Cedars! Lots to learn, soak up, and share here. Hope you enjoy it as much as my wife and I have.

43

Will we ever see another Ray Franz?

by Emery in

jw
friends

will we ever see another governing body member leave the organization like ray franz did and speak out against them?.

one can only imagine the kind of dirt that's been concealed behind those gb sessions since the 1980's.. what are your thoughts?.

jeremiah18:5-10

In my opening post when joining this site, I mentioned how disappointing it is for one's to stay in the "truth" when they know it is not "truth" and pleaded with them to take a stand.

The responses I received were to the effect that I should be grateful for having one's still in to lurk and provide updates and info to sites like this. Also that I should realize that some are unable to leave at present due to family ties, etc.

How could anyone then fault or attack Ray Franz for remaining and attempting to make change from within for as long as possible. Even after his ouster, he said that he attempted just to comment on scriptures and to provide accurate understanding. He demonstrated through his actions (associating with DF'd person) that he didn't recognize the authority of the GB. He attempted to set an example in living by conscience instead of blind loyalty to an unfaithful and misguided organization.

I'm appalled to hear such criticism of him in light of the present view voiced on this site toward those still in. Be appreciative of the efforts he did make and cut him the same slack you do others today.

I imagine if RF would've had access to the all-powerful internet and sites like this, he would've been a major contributor.

28

You CAN continue associating with wordly/disfellowshipped family members AND get a higher education

by Anony Mous in

quotes:.

-- therefore, explain that a parent's decision an a child's associates would not be based on religion, but on the young one's conduct ... it will probably help if you acknowledge that this does not mean that all other youths whom your children are around in the neighborhood or at school are no good.

some of them may be pleasant and decent, as some of your neighbors, relatives, and workmates are.

jeremiah18:5-10

Check out the hypocrisy and double standard in this article from 7/09 awake

TheBible’sViewpoint

IsItWrongtoChangeYourReligion?

When Avtar began studying the Bible, her Sikh family was upset. “In my homeland,” she says, “changing your religion cuts you off from the community. Even our names have religious meaning. To change your religion is viewed as rejecting your identity and disrespecting your family.”

AVTAR eventually became one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Was she wrong to change her religion? Perhaps you identify with her family. You may feel that your religion is inextricably linked with family history and culture and should not be changed.

Honoring one’s family is important. The Bible says: “Listen to your father who caused your birth.” (Proverbs 23:22) But it is more important to seek to know the truth about our Creator and his purposes. (Isaiah 55:6) Is such a search possible? If so, how important is this search to you?

Searching

forReligiousTruth

The world’s religions teach conflicting ideas. Logically, those teachings cannot all be true. As a result, there must be many people who, as the Bible says, “have a zeal for God; but not according to accurate knowledge.” (Romans 10:2) Yet, as recorded at 1 Timothy 2:4, the apostle Paul says that it is God’s will that “all sorts of men . . . come to an accurate knowledge of truth.” How can such accurate knowledge be found?

Consider reasons for examining the Bible. Paul, who was an inspired Bible writer, stated: “All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching.” (2 Timothy 3:16) As part of your search for truth, examine the evidence that the Bible’s claim is true. Investigate for yourself its unparalleled wisdom, historical accuracy, and fulfilled prophecy.

Instead of presenting all religions as equal approaches to God, the Bible tells its readers not to believe everything they hear but to “test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God.” (1 John 4:1) For example, any teaching that truly originates with God must be in harmony with his personality, including his dominant quality of love.—1 John 4:8.

The Bible assures us that God wants us to “really find him.” (Acts 17:26, 27) Since our Creator wants us to search for truth, it cannot be wrong to act on the evidence that we find—even if this means changing our religion. But what about the problems that this may bring?

Balancing

FamilyLoyalty

When people change their beliefs, they may decide that they will no longer share in certain religious rituals or holidays. Understandably, this can result in strong feelings within the family. Jesus acknowledged this. He told his followers: “I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a young wife against her mother-in-law.” (Matthew 10:35) Did Jesus mean that Bible teachings were designed to be an unavoidable cause of contention? No. He simply foresaw what could happen when family members react negatively to one who takes a firm stand for beliefs different from theirs.

Should family conflict be avoided at all costs? The Bible teaches that children should be obedient to parents and that wives should be in subjection to their husbands. (Ephesians 5:22; 6:1) However, it instructs those who love God to “obey God as ruler rather than men.” (Acts 5:29) Thus, at times, loyalty to God may result in your making a decision that is unpopular with some family members.

Although the Bible makes a clear distinction between true and false teachings, God allows each person the freedom to choose how he or she will respond. (Deuteronomy 30:19, 20) No one should be forced to worship in a way that he finds unacceptable or be made to choose between his beliefs and his family. Does study of the Bible lead to family breakup? No. In fact, the Bible encourages a husband and wife who practice different religions to remain together as a family.—1 Corinthians 7:12, 13.

Overcoming F

ears

You may fear how the community will react if you study the Bible with Jehovah’s Witnesses. Mariamma says: “My family was worried that I would not be able to find a suitable husband who could provide for me. So they opposed my Bible study.” Mariamma put her trust in Jehovah God and continued studying. (Psalm 37:3, 4) You can do the same. Rather than fear the results, consider the benefits. The Bible’s message changes lives and personalities for the better. People learn to show unselfish love for their family. Bad habits, such as verbal and physical violence and abuse of alcohol and drugs, can be overcome. (2 Corinthians 7:1) The Bible promotes such wholesome traits as loyalty, honesty, and industriousness. (Proverbs 31:10-31; Ephesians 4:24, 28) Why not study the Bible and see the benefits of applying its teachings in your life?

Couldn't believe it when I read it. Gonna share with my family that shuns me.

38

William Osbeck-The CO that helped me get out of the borg.

by Sadie5 in

jw
friends

after reading cruzenheart's post on the letter about her father, and the treatment he received from the co, william osbeck, and the elders of his congregation, it brought back my own memories of this particular co and his treatment of people.

it was 1995 and one of the hardest years of my life.

in february of that year, i learned i was pregnant with our fifth child.

jeremiah18:5-10

I just have to throw in my two cents on Osbeck. When my wife and I were pioneers, we moved to Wichita Falls, Tx. He became CO in 1998. At the time I was gulping down the koolaid like it was 110 degrees outside. We moved to the area to "help out". At the time I was a MS and knew one of the elders there who encouraged me to move. This body was rife with contention and strife and back-biting. The elders were competetive and trying to get "their guys" appointed as hellders to support their agendas. I was being groomed by the brother I knew, he frequently talked to me about all of the stuff going on. When Osbeck came he was on a mission. I spent alot of time with him that week in service and on "shepherding calls". He was definitely a company man and I was well on my way. He kept telling me how bright my future was in the organization and of course I was flattered and just ate it up. By the time Friday rolled around for the meeting with Hellders and MS, I was sure I would be recommended. During that meeting he proceeded to breakdown and humiliate the hellders in front of us and went thru each MS discussing our qualifications to be hellders, which I found to be exhilirating and shocking. He even discussed how good each of us would be as PO, since the PO was a large source of the issues. That Sunday he counseled the body in front of the whole congregation. At the time I thought it was amazing. Shortly there after he assigned me a part on the CA, the flattering continued. Despite that, my wife and I were continuously persecuted and rejected by the body and nit-picked to death and decided to move back to Arkansas where I was immediately appointed as a hellder. I had no idea what I was in for or what I was longing for. That time period turned my wife away from the truth and she started to fade. It took from 1998 to 2006 for her to completely fade out. I resisted until around 2008. I didnt fully escape until after being DF'd and even then not until this year did I lose my faith in the WTBTS. My experience with Osbeck was different than Sadie's, but all of the political crap and uncaring nature of things planted the seeds that have led to where we are today- liberated, free, and happy.

Sadie and others, I'm sorry for the pain you went thru, but it sure does reinforce our conviction for the rightness of our decisions now doesn't it.

Thanks for sharing

TB

106

Latest convention brochure on,,, the Governing Body

by cedars in

i've finally get my hands on a pdf of one of the two newly released brochures, this one entitled "who are doing jehovah's will today?".

here's a link so you can download your own copy.... http://www66.zippyshare.com/v/98881625/file.html.

predictably, the brochure is extremely vague on key topics.

jeremiah18:5-10

I read a scripture this morning that I feel is relevant to this whole discussion. Luke 12:57 in the Amplified Bible says, "And why do you not judge what is just, and personally decide what is right?" This was Jesus talking to the "crowds" after denouncing the Pharisees. The verses prior to it he states that they know how to interpret the sky and weather, then poses that question. It seems Jesus was questioning why they needed a "governing body" (Pharisees and scribes) to judge for them.

This reminds me of JW's. They individually refuse to "decide for themselves" preferring to have a "governing body" and a body of elders to decide "what is just and right" for them.

Such delusionment is what keeps the GB employed.

From these verses I believ its clear how Jesus felt about any GB.

2

Re: Secrecy Policy post by Celestial

by jeremiah18:5-10 in

what you and other wts apologists fail to recognize is the limited scope of "expertise" that elders and/or religious leaders have or should be permitted to have.

elders are allowed "freedom" to exercise authority as it relates to spiritual issues for their adherents.

religious freedom allows for adherents to seek spiritual assistance from "qualified" ministers who they look to as spiritual leaders.

jeremiah18:5-10

What you and other WTS apologists fail to recognize is the limited scope of "expertise" that elders and/or religious leaders have or should be permitted to have. Elders are allowed "freedom" to exercise authority as it relates to spiritual issues for their adherents. Religious freedom allows for adherents to seek spiritual assistance from "qualified" ministers who they look to as spiritual leaders. However, when the issue crosses spiritual limitations and enters the arena of being illegal, elders should remove themselves from such matters and defer to trained professionals who have the experience, authority, and resources to address such matters in harmony with the law.

The WTS by discouraging members from taking "brothers to court" thus encourages them instead to go the elders first. The WTS by requiring the elders to first contact the "Legal Department" presumes to place its relative authority above the existing superior authorities. When it's a matter of serious illegal activities like child abuse, rape, or murder, the elders and the WTS is obligated by common sense and love for their adherrents to refuse to handle such matters beyond the realm of spiritual encouragement and counsel. They cannot and should not presume to offer or render legal advice or intervention. The moment they do, they have placed their policies at the mercy of litigants and the courts.

In summary, elders, whether of the congregation or the WTS, are limited in the scope of their authority to being spiritual advisers and counselors. Clearly child abuse, rape, and murder are not spiritual weaknesses, they are heinous crimes that render "repentance" to be irrelevant as to whether the legal authorities get involved.

Your reasoning is completely devoid of this fact and literally makes me throw up!

44

Those who WERE or ARE Elders (Re: Molestation Coverup)

by dontplaceliterature in

i'd like to hear from those who are currently elders or were formerly elders on your honest feelings about the charges brought against the society and their general policy in handling these matters.

do you think that the society handles child abuse accusations fairly?

or, do you think their policy is abusive?

jeremiah18:5-10

I served as an elder for about 5 years, from age 27-32. After being appointed for about 3 months, I was put on the Service Committee and remained there at two different congregations until me deletion. During that time I served on one committee that handled a child abuse allegation. I felt so very unqualified for this and was at a loss the entire process, except when it came to providing spiritual assistance to the parents and the accused. I was not trained for nor did I expect to have to handle matters purely related to the law. I was disturbed by the older elders on the committee discouraing the accusers parents from seeking to go to the police. Frankly, the parents didn't want to go the police, they wanted resolution though the congregation, something the congregation is not qualified to provide for a victim. I personally told the parents that they had every right to go to the police and that if it were my child, I wouldn't think twice about ti. This of course led to me receiving counsel from the other two elders.

I am positive that the jury ruling is absolutely correct and a measure of justice. The WTS has clearly exceeded the scope of their authority by seeking to handle such matters "in house". The individual elders no doubt are just following the direction of the FDS and wold prefer not to handle such matters as they have little to no training for it. Even if they did, this would not absolve them or the WTS from responsibilty to report CRIMES or alleged CRIMES to the proper authorities and I submit to you that the WTS is NOT the proper authority for matters of child abuse, rape, or murder, any other crime.

58

The "Secrecy Policy

by Celestial in

i've given this recent lawsuit quite a bit of thought and come to sound conclusions.

after examining other organization's child-protection policies (namely churches), what i've come to realize is there's a one-size fits all solution that's socially acceptable; all information obtained through witnesses and confessions by organizational personnel is be used to aid and abet law-enforcement.

there's no in-between or anything short of this objective that's socially acceptable.

jeremiah18:5-10

Celestial

What you and othe WTS apologists fail to recognize is the limited scope of "expertise" that elders and/or religious leaders have or should be permitted to have. Elders are allowed "freedom" to exercise authority as it relates to spiritual issues for their adherents. Religious freedom allows for adherents to seek spiritual assistance from "qualified" ministers who they look to as spiritual leaders. However, when the issue crosses spiritual limitations and enters the arena of being illegal, elders should remove themselves from such matters and defer to trained professionals who have the experiance, authority, and resources to address such matters in harmony with the law.

The WTS by discouraging members from taking "brothers to court" thus encourages them instead to go the elders first. The WTS by reequiring the elders to first contact the "Legal Department" presumes to place its relative authority above the existing superior authorities. When it's a matter of serious illegal activities like child abuse, rape, or murder, the elders and the WTS is obligated by common sense and love for their adherrents to refuse to handle such matters beyond the realm of spiritual encouragement and counsel. They cannot and should not presume to offer or render legal advice or intervention. The moment they do, they have placed their policies at the mercy of litigants and the courts.

In summary, elders, whether of the congregation or the WTS, are limited in the scope of their authority to being spiritual advisers and counselors. Clearly child abuse, rape, and murder are not spiritual weaknesses, they are heinous crimes that render "repentance" to be irrelevant as to whether the legal authorities get involved.

Your reasoning is completely devoid of this fact and literally makes me throw up!