Why do I harbor an inclination that FRED is a troll?
Posts by ros
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18Much fuss about nothing?
by Norm inhey all,.
having been around the internet for about 7 years now and spent many years on h2o i have observed the activity of fred hall and you know both there and here.
people are of course free to do whatever they want, but personally i don't understand why anybody will bother with these two "village idiots".. why not ignore them completely.
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The BRCI Conference
by larc inare any of you going to the brci conference in waterloo, canada?
it should be coming up soon, in a matter of weeks.
they are a really good group of x's.
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ros
Hello, Had Enough:
You inquire whether BRCI is good for still-associated JWs -- ABSOLUTELY. You will be in good company. BRCI is very much aware that many Witnesses remain active for family reasons, and they are very accommodating. The mission of BRCI is to help bridge the way out of the Watchtower.
Its even often announced that people should use discretion in taking pictures for the very reason you of your concern.If you feel like it, post me privately. Perhaps we can discuss more and I can help you get in touch with some others in similar circumstances.
E-mail me at [email protected]
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To Norm
by ros ini don't want to debate religion or science with you and all your friends publically.
okay, so you and alan are the most gentle and kind people you know.
may we assume your other friends are not kind and gentle, or just not as kind and gentle?
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ros
Hello, Norm:
First let me say I appreciated the general civility of your post quoted below, and I'll try to respond in kind.It was very messy, . . .
Yeh, can't keep it straight which board I'm posting on. Got coding syntax mixed up with H2O's..
. . . but I think you said:
Quote:
So, you assume the reason and then answer it. Isn't that a straw-man? Okay, so maybe you're right. How could you not like me when you don't know me. Let me refine the point: You just don't like what I stand for.Yes, I could think of no other reason why YOU think I don't like you, because I actually do Ros. I do hope we can meet some day.
You DO? (As a cat likes to meet a mouse?)
(Let me assure you I'm not nearly as charming in person.)
As I said, I shouldn't say you don't like ME. Sorry, that was presumptuous. What you don't like is Biblical faith (I think you used the word "loath" in one discussion). Since I'm a "believer" and you have expressed your disdain for such, I make the assumption that the disdain carries over to the people who hold to what you loath.
As you know, I have good friends who "don't agree with me," and I would never say they don't like me because they "don't agree with me." The difference is they let me enjoy my faith without "taking potshots" at it - at least to me.What DO you stand for Ros? Do tell me.
Okay, Norm, I'm going to acquiesce to your question, but I won't argue it. In a nutshell:
**I am a non-trinitarian Christian. I don't believe in everlasting torture, don't believe the Bible teaches it, and I don't believe in the mainstream soul doctrine.
**I am a political pacifist, and was before I became a JW.
**I believe science is not at odds with religion (a misconception promulgated in large part by opposing factions between science-type atheists and dogmatic evangelicals "fundies"). Science and faith are compatible.
**I believe in evolution in general, but not all the theories (neither do most scientists). The Creator is, in fact, most aptly revealed through science.
**I believe there is an essential underlying message in the Bible that is God-inspired. That seems all the more apparent to me by the very fact that the writers documented events according to their own imperfect human perception (much the way fundamentalists will attribute events in their personal lives - including catastrophic events - to the actions and will of God). The underlying story/theme came through and culminated in the events of Christ (which I don't go into detail here) in such a way that I cannot attribute to mere coincidence, in spite of the crude and conflicting historical accounts that led up to those events. That is why Christ said that HE had revealed God and made His name (ie. personality) known. To my thinking, by these words, Jesus made it known that God was not revealed in the OT. (Not to mention things like: "Moses said . . . but I say to you . . ., etc.)
**Hebrew historical documents and bits and pieces that have survived were compiled by scribes and historians, et.al., into a canon we call the Bible. There were other writings (some of which are referred to in Scripture) that have been lost, as well as records that have been intentionally excluded due to religious bias of the compilers. But the essential simple message is in there: We should be good; good to one another and good to the earth and all its creatures. Good will be eternal, bad will not.
**That most traditional Christians do not understand the Bible because they insist on a predestined wholly inspired book compiled by God that is to be taken literally in every aspect - and it is that premise that skeptics can and do refute.
**That sincere people of all religions throughout all time are acceptable to God (perhaps depicted by "the rest of the dead" in Rev.20).
**That this is the life of the "knowledge of good and evil"; that was the message of the Adam and Eve story.
**That it is essentially impossible to understand the analogies and parables of the Bible without studying the Hebrew culture and their mindset (for example the way they employ extreme exaggeration to illustrate a point, stating it as though it were fact; or acting out what they believe to illustrate a divine precept, etc.). Many westerners, by our culture, especially the math thinkers, have difficulty comprehending Hebraic thinking - almost as much difficulty as understanding Norwegians (who seem to share certain similarities). However, such in-depth study is not essential for understanding the basic simple message, which is the premise of universal love.
**And, yes, I believe in what the ransom of Christ typifies.Realize this is a very brief epitome of what I believe, not comprehensive, and without going into details or justification of why I believe it. You do not need to explain to me that you DON'T believe these things, Norm, I know what atheism is. So now that I've given you some idea of what I believe, can we just agree to disagree in our opposing views about religion and faith?
LOL! Sure you'll do it publically, because your friends who do study these things will come to the fore when you get in over your head. For the benefit of any who read this and may not be aware of it, and as you are sure to remember, in some of our arguments on the former H2O, I offered to discuss the issues with you in private e-mail because I don't care to get into those debates on a public forum. I said that over, and over, and over, and over.
I agree, Ros, you did suggest it. But some times you can't resist it and come out of the woodwork and take some quick pot shots at the subject. This time you came out and take a little pot shot at me personally. When you do that in public you will get a public answer. What's the problem?
I don't think I take potshots except in retaliation to ridicule or dogmatic preaching. In that case, you're right, sometimes it is irresistible. (You should know!) However, I don't think that is true in this case. My remark about you was a direct response to your crack about BRCI, which you know little about. I would say you took the first "potshot" - not at me, but at an organization you know I am associated with that works to make parting from the Watchtower a little less painful.
Too many people get into the act, it goes off in too many directions, and it takes too much time to respond. But you declined discussing it privately saying you don't know that much about evolution/science and don't have the interest. (That I believe.) But you never drop hounding me to debate with you publically. I don't want to debate religion or science with you and all your friends publically. Or anything else.
So engaging in debate with you, responding to your public posts you consider "hounding" you Ros?
No. Reflecting on our past arguing on H2O, my recollection is that it was usually you and Cygnus who would take argumentative "potshots" at me, and I made rebuttal.
I don't think you should post to these sites Ros. Someone might answer your posts and thus they would be hounding you. If you don't want to debate religion or science, or anything else with me, why do you bother responding to my posts?
People answer my posts all the time here without hounding me. In fact, I would NOT say you are hounding in this post. Back on H2O I did consider not responding to some of your posts that seemed bent on drawing me into religious argument, and I even considered doing as you suggest, leaving the forum. Maybe I just don't understand how someone can come out of a religion like the Watchtower and be so intent on swaying others to believe their way. I just don't understand the lust for shattering other people's faith because you have come to a personal conclusion against it for yourself. Nevertheless, one of my character weaknesses perhaps is that it pushes my buttons for people to impose their thinking on me, especially trying to sway me with ridicule. (Maybe a Watchtower hangover.)
Am I prohibited from responding to your posts making personal comments about me? Do we see the contours of a new kind of ruling class here?
LOL. Does it look like it?
Okay, so you and Alan are the most gentle and kind people you know. May we assume your other friends are not kind and gentle, or just not AS kind and gentle? (Wondering what this has to do with the topic, but . . . )I do not know who you talk about Ros, is it the comments from others in a public debate you are so terrified about? I am sorry but I can't and won't be held responsible for other debaters on this site Ros. I am sure you don't feel responsible for any of the other debaters here either.
I have not a clue what you are alluding to here, Norm. Either you didn't understand me, or I'm missing your point. Considering it might be a culture block, let me explain that I was making jest of you saying Alan and you were about THE most gentle and kind people you know. My tongue-in-cheek reply was that this implies the other people you know are not gentle and kind--which of course we presume is not true.
In that case, I wonder what the other people are like that you know. (My recollection is that Alan doesn't have too much tolerance for nonsense. Course, I don't know about that other stuff you mention.) Well, Ros, nonsense and bullshit is very much related as you know. For example I consider long harangues about "evidence" for a triune God, bullshit. Then again I consider long harangues to the contrary equally as much bullshit, go figure.
Well, we agree on something, Norm!
Now, personally, I consider long harangues about whether or not there is evidence of God to be of the same anal source as trinitarian debating (which also I refuse to be drawn into).I don't come here to debate or convert people to my way of thinking. I'm not here to draw people to my religious viewpoint. I'm here because there are Jehovah's Witnesses coming out of the Watchtower who need support from those of us who have been there, and places like this and other websites are places they come seeking that support. So is BRCI. Reaching out to these people is my main purpose and objective for being here. Not "haranguing" over atheism and trinitarianism, or the right to say "bulshit". I sincerely believe such is a deterrent to our objectives. If the objectives are otherwise, perhaps you're right - I have no business here.
Norm, I have no objection to this kind of discussion with you although I rarely have time for something this lengthy. If it seemed like I took an unwarranted "potshot" at you in the BRCI post, I apologize.(Let's hope I didn't mess up on the syntax this time.)
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To: Uncle Onion & Ros
by Amazing inhi uncle & ros: buried deep down in tina's post uncle asked whether i was an atheist and ros noted that she thought i was a liberal christian.
i have been going through an evolution in my life, but i will try to give a good snapshot of where i am at now.
i may yet change one way or another:.
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ros
4. I am not sure I can be called a 'Liberal' Christian, because I am not sure what that is. I have no membership in any organized religion, and believe that anything Christian is a matter of what each individual is. I do not judge those who are members of churches. But, I believe that Christianity is something more than a church. And, I cannot submit, ever again, to any organized system. BRCI is about as far as I can go.
Hi, Amazing:
When I say "liberal" Christian, that is as opposed to "conservative" Christian, which generally applies to evangelical literalists who hold the Bible to be both literal and inerrant. However, now that you mention it, I can see where the term could be confusing. In that sense, I consider myself a "liberal Christian". I don't think of the term as having reference to moral values. Maybe I better think of a better descriptive term.Question: Do any of you think it is possible that it was the Devil that set-up Adam & Eve with the Tree rule, and it was GOD who was trying to get Adam & Eve to think for themselves and not just obey out of blind acceptance, but make a choice? And that it was really Satan that labeled God as a snake because he did not want humans to become independant? Think about it?
My take on the story is somewhat different than yours, Amazing. Next time we meet, we'll have to discuss this. -
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The BRCI Conference
by larc inare any of you going to the brci conference in waterloo, canada?
it should be coming up soon, in a matter of weeks.
they are a really good group of x's.
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ros
[q]Wow! How do you know I don’t like you Ros? Is it because I disagree with you?[/b]
No.
[q]Here I thought that you at least had learned that disagreement isn’t synonymous with dislike, oh well.[/b]
So, you assume the reason and then answer it. Isn't that a straw-man?
Okay, so maybe you're right. How could you not like me when you don't know me. Let me refine the point: You just don't like what I stand for.
[q]As for my knowledge of evolution and science and religion I will gladly publicly debate that with you any time and let others decide who know what.[/q]
LOL! Sure you'll do it publically, because your friends who do study these things will come to the fore when you get in over your head.
For the benefit of any who read this and may not be aware of it, and as you are sure to remember, in some of our arguments on the former H2O, I offered to discuss the issues with you in private e-mail because I don't care to get into those debates on a public forum. I said that over, and over, and over, and over . . .
Too many people get into the act, it goes off in too many directions, and it takes too much time to respond. But you declined discussing it privately saying you don't know that much about evolution/science and don't have the interest. (That I believe.) But you never drop hounding me to debate with you publically. I don't want to debate religion or science with you and all your friends publically. Or anything else.
[q]Alan F is one of the most gentle and kind people I know, just like me in fact.[/q]
Okay, so you and Alan are the most gentle and kind people you know. May we assume your other friends are not kind and gentle, or just not AS kind and gentle? (Wondering what this has to do with the topic, but . . . )[q]The only difference is that Alan has a far higher tolerance for bullshit than me.:-)[/q]
In that case, I wonder what the other people are like that you know. (My recollection is that Alan doesn't have too much tolerance for nonsense. Course, I don't know about that other stuff you mention.)
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The BRCI Conference
by larc inare any of you going to the brci conference in waterloo, canada?
it should be coming up soon, in a matter of weeks.
they are a really good group of x's.
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ros
Also, "Hi" to Alana:
Good to hear from you, too. How'r things going for ya, gal. You doing okay?
Really enjoyed meeting you last year. -
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The BRCI Conference
by larc inare any of you going to the brci conference in waterloo, canada?
it should be coming up soon, in a matter of weeks.
they are a really good group of x's.
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ros
HI!!! RW:
I've been thinking about you! Good to see from you again. Wish I was going to be at BRCI to see you, too. This will be the first BRCI I've missed in about 10 years.
But I pretty certain I'll see ya next year. (I hear it might be in the Chicago area again next year, but that's not certain. The board will have to decide at their meeting.Tina:
LOL! Quite all right. Glad we got that little confusion cleared up. (I'll bet COMF is too.)Scorpion:
Thanks for the reply/clarification. I hear Ron Frye is not going to make it to BRCI this year either. You're right, his Christian Respondents were great stuff. -
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The BRCI Conference
by larc inare any of you going to the brci conference in waterloo, canada?
it should be coming up soon, in a matter of weeks.
they are a really good group of x's.
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ros
Reply to Tina:
Hi, Tina:
I think Scorpian was referring to Norm's own post a little higher up, not COMF's post to me. (Just a guess)Also, I'm hoping AMAZING will see the question to him from Uncle Onion. (It's my impression that AMAZING is liberal Christian.)
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Why do they have clothes on?
by Simon injust a thought.... in most of the publications that have pictures of people in the new order / new system / paradise earth - why do they have clothes on?
not only that, but they usually wear their national costumes !.
i guess the practical reason is that if everyone was naked then the watchtower would be classed as soft-porn and could only be sold from top shelves.... anyone have any thoughts on this?
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ros
Hello, Simon:
I posed this very question in an article on BEACON website - www.xjw.com
Article is titled: "Paradise on Earth--When?" -
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Survey
by Vienna inhow many on this board are: a) christains--not a jw b) jehovah's witnesses c) do not believe in god d) have a belief in god but just not active in anything right now.
i'm new to the board and was curious as to everyone's standing.
i'm 30, a christain, i left the jws 3 years ago (after being in it for 21 years) to follow jesus and heard of, among other good things, this great thing called: grace!
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ros
I, and many of my exJW friends, remain Christian, non-trinitarian. I am not affiliated with any church denomination. Have an avid interest in Biblical study from a more scholarly perspective.
I host www.christianquest.org website.