Posts by RWC

72

Question for Atheists

by RWC in

christians who believe in the bible and the teachings of christ use that as a moral core and code of conduct.

for those who don't believe in god, where do you get your sense of moral right and wrong?

what is your moral foundation?

RWC

Abaddon, I see your point. Of course non religious people were involved in the fight against discrimination and sadly those who claimed to be religious fought to allow it.

Of course morals change over time. But I would not agree that our morals are better now than in the past in the same respect you claim. For example, in the U.S. the divorce rate is now one in three in secular marriages. However, marriages that are Christian based where the coouple attend church reqularly, study the Bible, and actively pray, the divorce rate is one in a thousand.

Is the Bible the only moral code? Of course not. But those who are Buddists, Hindus etc.. have their own religiously based code to live by. It is not based upon their individual moral beliefs.

Laws and tangible harm are are good start, but people can act immorally without breaking any laws or causing tangible harm.

And am I biased? Of course I am!

9

help

by RWC in

jw
friends

okay, a stupid question.

how do you cut and paste to quote other posts?

.

RWC

Okay, a stupid question. How do you cut and paste to quote other posts?

thanks

12

The axe falls...

by Abaddon in

jw
friends

... hi ho hi ho, it's not off to work we go.... well, i am redundant, or will be as of end april, when the two factories of my company shut-down and approx.

500 people get made redundant.. nil desperandum and all that... i don't see this as a disaster... if it had been announced in a month i would probably have just signed mortgage papers, and that, whilst still not a disaster would be a tad inconvenient!.

gizza job?.

RWC

Abaddon,

I am sorry to hear that you were laid off. I will pray for you and your family. As others have said, sometimes things like this are the best things tht can happen. But that can only be seen when you are done going through the valley. I too have been through some serious financial concerns and I learned alot about myself while I was going through them. Some I liked and some I didn't, but in the end I am a better person for going through the trial.

God Bless

72

Question for Atheists

by RWC in

christians who believe in the bible and the teachings of christ use that as a moral core and code of conduct.

for those who don't believe in god, where do you get your sense of moral right and wrong?

what is your moral foundation?

RWC

Running Man, my attempt was sincere. My reply was what it was because I was suprised by the answers. I truly thought that there would have been more thought than people make up their moral code, or we base it upon the majority rules arguments. I apologize if that reply was considered preaching.

Abaddon, your post raises an interesting point. We can do what we want as long as it doesn't infringe upon the rights of others. The ultimate question of course, is what is the baseline to determine where one person's rights end and another begins. Also, if that baseline is based upon nothing more than majority rules than it will change all of the time. For example for far to long we in the states allowed the majority to discriminate upon the minority simply because of the color of their skin. That didn't change because of the change in the majoroty, but because of the religious beliefs of a few that risked their lives.

Do I believe that all atheists are amoral people? Of course not. Just like all religious people are not moral. But for a person that claims to be religious, the moral code that he claims to live by is outlined in the Bible so all can see where he falls short.

54

Bible Fake: Jesus Stills the Storm

by JosephAlward in

i've argued before in this forum that mark wanted to have jesus seem to be the messiah whose existence he believed--or pretended to believe--was prophesied, foreshadowed, or prefigured, by persons and events found in scripture, so he scoured the writings of the prophets for these stories, and adapted them to fit jesus.

i believe the striking parallels below show almost conclusively that mark's story about jesus stilling the storm was adapted from jonah, and is fictional.. in jonah, a violent storm threatens a ship on which jonah sleeps, so mark made a violent storm threaten a ship on which jesus sleeps.

in jonah, the apprehensive sailors waken jonah and question his cavalier attitude toward the danger, so mark made his boat's captain apprehensive also, and had him, too, waken jesus and question him about his seeming lack of concern.

RWC

Joseph,

I think that it is obvious that you have no scholarly studies to support your theory. When asked to show it, you try to shift the burden of proof and say that all you are doing is tying similar stories together, so the later ones must be fake. If you are going to raise the theory that Mark made up the stories, you must show that he did. You must not ignore the evidence that he was an eyewitness, you must not ignore the evidence that he was killed for his "made up stories", and you must not ignore the portions of the Gospels where he says what he is writing is true. You must be the one to say that he is lying. That would be your role as a skeptic. I think you will start ignoring me because you cannot so this when asked.

What you have done is pick some stories from the old testament, find apparant similarites and than say that that means the new testament story is made up. As I have pointed out, that is not a logical conclusion and is not a rational leap from the evidence you have presented.

Can you present one biblical scholar who has made the same connections you have between these stories? They of course would think both are true, but if they are connected surely a Biblical scholar in the past would have made the connection.

As for the David stories, you are too general to make the connection so I am unable to respond. There are alot of people in the Bible that lamented and experienced agony such as Jesus in the garden. Which event to you think that was copied from?

As for the stories of the feedings we have discussed that in earlier posts. That is why I did not repeat that here. But if you will recall, the stories are not as similar as you have suggested and have no connection to each other.

There are of course some striking differences between Jonah and the Jesus story which you are ignoring:

1. Jonah was asked to go to a particular city and he went the opposite direction. Jesus was going no where in particular.

2. Jonah was not following God's instructions, he was running away from them. Jesus was dooing what he was sent here for.

3. Jonah was on a bost full of people who did not believe in God. Jesus was on a boat with his followers.

4. Jonah was in a deep sleep in the bottom of the boat. Jesus was napping in the stern, there is no mention that he was in a deep sleep.

5. The men on Jonah's boat did not look to Jonah to save them, but that he was the cause of the storm. The men on Jesus' boat looked to him to save them.

6. Jonah was thrown overboard. Jesus was not thrown overboard.

7. Jonah was eaten by a big fish and stayed in his belly praying to God for three days. Jesus was not eaten by a fish and simply told the storm to quiet.

8. Jonah had to repent for not following God's instuctions. Jesus had nothing to repent for.

9. The storm in Jonah was apparently sent by God because of Jonah's failure to follow his wishes. The storm in Jesus' version was apparently naturally caused for no particular reason.

10. The moral of the stories and the idea they are trying to teach are completely different. Jonah teaches that God will sometimes ask you to do things that are in his plan, but not in yours, but you must trust him. The purpose behind the story in Mark is to show that Jesus had control over nature.

Now, you have pointed out five apparent similarites, I have pointed out ten differences. Do you still think Mark copied Jonah for this episode?

It is clear in Jonah, that God spared the Nievites because they repented. It was an example of God's grace.

Finally, what makes you think that the Bible readers needed to be told that only God could make a man live in a fish for three days? Why would they need to be told that that miracle was from God? Don't you think that is obvious?

35

The story of Samson

by Simon in

just a few things in the account that don't make sense and lead me to believe it's just a made of story (really?

a guy with superhuman power?

who would have thought... ).

RWC

Those of you who poke fun at this story have missed its point entirely. Liberty the only point that you have made is that you do not understand the significance of the story or what it is trying to teach.

As for the description of the foxes, that sounds interesting but is based upon too many assumptions to be of any value.

By the way, he does tell her that his head was never shaved because he was a Nazerite and set apart to God from birth. When he prays to God at the end he doesn't say, thank you for letting my hair grow back. He calls on God for his strength.

And what makes you think that God condoned all of his behavior? The story doesn't end with him riding off into the sunset happy.

35

The story of Samson

by Simon in

just a few things in the account that don't make sense and lead me to believe it's just a made of story (really?

a guy with superhuman power?

who would have thought... ).

RWC

Let me respond to Samson:

First he was a Nazirite from birth. That means through his parents they made a vow that he would never drink wine, never cut his hair, and never have contact with the dead. The fact that he attributed his strength to his hair was really attributing it to God through the vow that he had made.

Second, the text makes it clear that the reason he finally gave in to Delilah was because she nagged him everyday about it until he was tired to death. Who hasn't done that in their lifetime.

Third he lost his strength, not because of his hair, but because the Lord had left him for breaking his vow.

The fact that the Philistines would allow his hair to grow back was because they didn't believe in God and because they had left him to rot in prison. Only when they thought that they were invincible did they call for him to come to the party where he killed them.

As for the foxes, how did you figure out how many foxes lived in that are at that time when you did your calculations?

72

Question for Atheists

by RWC in

christians who believe in the bible and the teachings of christ use that as a moral core and code of conduct.

for those who don't believe in god, where do you get your sense of moral right and wrong?

what is your moral foundation?

RWC

Thank you for your responses. Some thoughts in reply:

Running Man: I noticed that you fail to quote any of the New Testament in your post. You do qoute from the old testament in part but you fail to put these events in context, nor do you mention the consequences of the behavior that some of the men you mention engaged in. David for example paid a huge price for his sins. You also fail to mention the biggest principle of the Christian faith and that is forgiveness for our sins by the same God who you call cruel.

It seems that without a moral code that is based on any standard that an aethist will develop a personal moral code that seems right for him. This of course leads to everyone doing what they want and telling everyone else to let them. If it is based upon culture alone, than if a culture allowed murder and rape without consequences you would have to say that that is alright. If everyone can do what they want, why would an aethist attempt to impose the morality of their culture on another culture, such as when the government imposes sanctions on another country for "human rights" violations. It would appear hypocritical for an aethist who has devloped his own moral code to support such an action.

Larc, some folks may go to church in an attempt to stay moral, however I don't believe that is the reson the majority go. We go to worship our God, learn his word and fellowship with fellow believers.

54

Bible Fake: Jesus Stills the Storm

by JosephAlward in

i've argued before in this forum that mark wanted to have jesus seem to be the messiah whose existence he believed--or pretended to believe--was prophesied, foreshadowed, or prefigured, by persons and events found in scripture, so he scoured the writings of the prophets for these stories, and adapted them to fit jesus.

i believe the striking parallels below show almost conclusively that mark's story about jesus stilling the storm was adapted from jonah, and is fictional.. in jonah, a violent storm threatens a ship on which jonah sleeps, so mark made a violent storm threaten a ship on which jesus sleeps.

in jonah, the apprehensive sailors waken jonah and question his cavalier attitude toward the danger, so mark made his boat's captain apprehensive also, and had him, too, waken jesus and question him about his seeming lack of concern.

RWC

In order to be a true skeptic you must do more than take two similar stories and then reach the illogical and unsupported leap that the second one is a copy of the first and therefore the second event did not happen. You must present some proof that the second story is made up. Your "logic" is as follows: A: Jonah' story is about a fish and a sea: B: Jesus calms a sea under similar circumstances as Jonah and C: Thus the Jesus story is false.

There is styill no answer to the ultimate question: What evidence do you have that Mark is lying and that he has copied a story to fictionalize an event that he claims is real? Without that you have simply presented two similar events in history and made the unsupportable attempt at a connection.

72

Question for Atheists

by RWC in

christians who believe in the bible and the teachings of christ use that as a moral core and code of conduct.

for those who don't believe in god, where do you get your sense of moral right and wrong?

what is your moral foundation?

RWC

Christians who believe in the Bible and the teachings of Christ use that as a moral core and code of conduct. For those who don't believe in God, where do you get your sense of moral right and wrong? What is your moral foundation? And why?